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LEGALFREETOAIR.COM 4K UHDTV, IPTV, 3DTV, and OTA DISCUSSIONS/INFO CENTER => OTA Over The Air Discussions => Topic started by: Hyper on October 12, 2015, 08:37:18 PM



Title: ATSC 3.0
Post by: Hyper on October 12, 2015, 08:37:18 PM
ATSC 3.0

Here is a link to an article on the ATSC 3.0 standard for anyone interested. I thought it was a good read.

Code:
http://www.cedmagazine.com/article/2015/10/capital-currents-what-good-quality-atsc-30-television-signal?et_cid=4864103&et_rid=647969182&location=top


More on ATSC 3.0 here:

Code:
http://atsc.org/newsletter/atsc-3-0-where-we-stand/


 ::cool



Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: El_Viejo on October 12, 2015, 10:38:02 PM
Maybe they will take enough time that I won't be around to have to contend with new tvs, etc.  So much for backward compatibility. It was required when they added stereo to FM, it still had to be able to be received on a mono FM receiver. Yes, i'm telling my age, but I'm not ashamed of my age. But at the old song says; "It's not the age on this old frame, it's the mileage that is slowing me down."  lol   E_V


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: Jimlw1 on October 13, 2015, 01:51:46 AM
El_Viejo,

A$ M$ would tell you, backward compatibility don't make money, $o why make it !

All Brand $pankin New i$ where the money i$ and that will be what come$ to the Market - It'$ all about the money$.

And that i$ the truth.

And believe it or not, DIGITAL i$ better, or $o i have heard, but i $till need $omeone to $how me where.

jimlw1


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: jess73 on October 13, 2015, 03:29:14 PM
Strange, but I agree with both of you.  Yes El Viejo; the "new" color signals had to be able to be seen on a B/W Tv.  I also know that most things made now are NOT ment to last very long, otherwise we would only buy them once!  I still have a few "OLD" things that still work pretty well, including myself.  Jess out in California


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: El_Viejo on October 14, 2015, 12:07:16 AM
jimlw1, my son that passed about 8 years ago always said when he talked about lawyers, etc, 'it's all about the money!' I get ur point.  Jess, I didn't think of the color tv part of it, but that was the case.  If u will remember the government subsidized the digital converters for those that wanted them. Then our esteemed leader kept wanting to delay the changeover.   oh well, get off my soapbox, lol    E_V


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: cpsp0 on July 13, 2016, 12:19:26 AM
Strange, but I agree with both of you.  Yes El Viejo; the "new" color signals had to be able to be seen on a B/W Tv.  I also know that most things made now are NOT ment to last very long, otherwise we would only buy them once!  I still have a few "OLD" things that still work pretty well, including myself.  Jess out in California

You're not old Jess, and we all know you work well, from reading what you've posted.

 ::thumbs_up


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: joeroscoe1957 on December 29, 2016, 04:04:06 PM
Was just reading more on some of the "good" possibilities  of this upcoming ATSC 3.0 on the   .com link of     cutcabletoday . Been concerned since Hyper first brought this to my attention months ago . They point out that the transition will be quite different than the analog to hd we experienced a few years ago .    But also mention how a small indoor antenna might receive stations 60 miles away and abilities to watch on our phones data free , if  the cellphone manufacturers get on board .     The analog to hd worked out better than I thought , maybe this might have hope .


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: Jeff S. on January 19, 2017, 10:17:49 AM
Some of those rumors are true. For the antennas to receive, yes this system will be better, but not the 60 mile out with a rabbit ears is not going to happen. But urban areas will be good to go!

We will have ATSC 3.0 tuner in June and hopefully July delivery of such products.

Stay tuned.

Regards,

Jeff Schumann


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: Hyper on June 25, 2018, 07:41:34 PM
An update about support for ATSC 3.0. This is part of an article being written for a trade magazine.

Manhattan-Digital in Wisconsin hopes to specialize in multimedia set top boxes, with plans for a dual ATSC 1.0/3.0 device to be available this coming fall (2018), at a very competitive price.  The reality of the ATSC 3.0 situation is that there are ZERO reception devices in the homes of Americans as of this writing. Assuming a rough number of 2.5 to 3.0 televisions per household in this country, the potential exists for the need to have between 250 and 300 million ATSC 3.0 reception devices in order to receive this new programming standard.

People will NOT spend money to replace every television set, and the only practical way for most households to participate in continued free over-the-air reception is with a set-top box capable of the new 3.0 standard, as well as the old ATSC 1.0 system. Existing and planned televisions are woefully lacking in abilities such as program storage (think DVR and TIVO-like devices). This is much more easily accomplished with a reasonably priced set-top box.

Multiple set-top configurations could cost effectively allow a mix of subscription and free TV, delivered by local VHF and UHF television frequencies, direct internet, and satellite reception. Estimates as high as 55 million have been thrown about for the numbers of sets and converters presently antenna-equipped for local reception.

Intelligent rollout of ATSC 3.0 could spur further interest in local TV antennas, possibly reviving that industry.




 ::grin


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: digitaldan on February 17, 2019, 09:08:16 AM
Code:
https://www.cordcuttersnews.com/sinclair-plans-to-launch-next-gen-atsc-3-0-over-the-air-tv-in-26-markets-in-2019/


The start has been announced. This year we will see ATSC 3.0 and the way it looks, Sinclair will help with tuners to help with the transition. In my opinion, when this happens everyone will have to switch or start loosing revenue to Sinclair.


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: DAVE5 on February 17, 2019, 12:02:22 PM
Any update when an ATSC 3.0 STB will become available???


Dave

An update about support for ATSC 3.0. This is part of an article being written for a trade magazine.

Manhattan-Digital in Wisconsin hopes to specialize in multimedia set top boxes, with plans for a dual ATSC 1.0/3.0 device to be available this coming fall (2018), at a very competitive price.  The reality of the ATSC 3.0 situation is that there are ZERO reception devices in the homes of Americans as of this writing. Assuming a rough number of 2.5 to 3.0 televisions per household in this country, the potential exists for the need to have between 250 and 300 million ATSC 3.0 reception devices in order to receive this new programming standard.

People will NOT spend money to replace every television set, and the only practical way for most households to participate in continued free over-the-air reception is with a set-top box capable of the new 3.0 standard, as well as the old ATSC 1.0 system. Existing and planned televisions are woefully lacking in abilities such as program storage (think DVR and TIVO-like devices). This is much more easily accomplished with a reasonably priced set-top box.

Multiple set-top configurations could cost effectively allow a mix of subscription and free TV, delivered by local VHF and UHF television frequencies, direct internet, and satellite reception. Estimates as high as 55 million have been thrown about for the numbers of sets and converters presently antenna-equipped for local reception.

Intelligent rollout of ATSC 3.0 could spur further interest in local TV antennas, possibly reviving that industry.




 ::grin


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on February 17, 2019, 06:02:22 PM
LOL
ATSC 3.0 Was "here" in 2017 and again in 2018. This thread spans some 5 years, with promises or expectations of a fta ATSC 3.0 receiver in 2017, and 2018. Expect another promise of a 3.0 receiver for 2019. Do this every year and sooner or later, you will be right!
A good sign that ATSC 3.0 is finally "here" will be when people start posting videos of ATSC 3.0 transmissions done with consumer grade televisions, tuners, or receivers.

Reality is a bit different. The U.S. market is not embracing 3.0 technology as was hoped or expected. Vague target dates for ATSC 3.0 transmissions to happen somewhere between 2020 and 2023 have not changed much. And to date, there is one high priced ATSC 1.0/3.0 dongle tuner on the market. In reality, ATSC 3.0 was more about selling frequency spectrum than anything else. This is easy to see by the way the rules are written.

High priced televisions with ATSC 1.0/3.0 tuners might be in a few stores by Black Friday, 2019. A better bet would be first quarter of 2020 for televisions with 1.0/3.0 tuners to be available in stores. I doubt you see a fta receiver with an internal ATSC 3.0 tuner before the televisions with these tuners are available.  We will see...

Code:
https://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/searching-for-atsc-3-0-at-ces-2019


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: digitaldan on February 18, 2019, 09:12:33 AM
As we all know there are still some people that think the world is flat even today. That said, 26 markets will be lit up for broadcast this year. Dallas, Phoenix, Chicago to name 3, will have consumer broadcasting this year. Sinclair has announced that they will help get receivers to the consumer. That is enough for me. Nothing was planned before now except "Test" broadcasts and everyone that has paid attention knows that. There was a lot of talk about local stations getting the receivers to the public through programs so the consumer can afford it as an option that was viable. Maybe look to the markets that start this year as to how the receiver thing might work. That said, nobody really knows the actual cost of a consumer unit. All we have seen so far is dongles made for engineers long with the software package to play. That is where the expense comes in at the present time. Just like you can still spend thousands today on any receiver. All along I thought that broadcasts for the consumer wouldn't be till this year or next. Well, there are a lot of stations in 26 markets. We will see for sure how soon this transpires, but from an emergency broadcast point of view, I look for stations to give away receivers like they do smoke detectors and selling it as a public safety issue is not a stretch as the emergency first responders want this. The chip has been released. The thing that will keep the price down in my humble opinion is the fact that the chip is universal covering all video formats around the world. So manufacturers don't have to worry because so many numbers will be produced world wide the numbers will help with cost. Anyway here is the chip press release...

Code:
https://www.marketwatch.com/press-release/advanced-atsc-30-chip-launched-for-mobile-and-broadcast-applications-2019-01-08


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: digitaldan on February 18, 2019, 10:01:33 AM
Here are the stations owned by Sinclair...
Code:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_stations_owned_or_operated_by_Sinclair_Broadcast_Group
   

And here is a PDF on the chip that was developed and now released... 
Code:
http://sbgi.net/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Advanced-ATSC-Chip-Press-Release-FINAL.pdf
   

And here is the way the first responders look at it and why they are behind it.. 
Code:
http://www.videa.tv/2019/01/the-atsc-3-0-emergency-alert-a-boon-for-communities-and-local-tv-stations/
 

And yes the stations must carry their "Primary" broadcast for 5 years after starting their 3.0 signal. That is the "Primary" channel for those that might of missed it the first time... There is no mandate to simulcast 3.0 transmissions of sub channels. That is a non debatable fact. There is simply not enough bandwidth to do that. So ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, and the like will be simulcast. Forget the sub channels due to bandwidth limitations. Many channels are looking to light up as they switch to their new frequency. However there is no way to know how many will be able to pull it off. Bearing that in mind, if a small channel in Santa Barbra can afford it, so can everyone else making cost not as expensive as some would like to believe.
 
 Oh yea, Hyper.... Looks like East Lansing will be lit up this year.
 


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: jess73 on February 18, 2019, 10:26:43 PM
Well; Looks like there is some 3.0 testing going on out in Fresno, California!  Decades on 8.2 on Transmitter 18 is in 720p and picture is "herringbone" but the audio is ok.  There are two other ch.s 27.2 and 27.3 that are received fine that are on Transmitter18 also.  Most re-pak is done with a couple that will transition in 2020.  Jess out in Fresno, California


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: Jimlw1 on February 20, 2019, 02:55:34 AM
At my age i don't sweat the small stuff - if it happens, it happens - if it don't happen, then it don't happen.

If i'm still with it, maybe i will see things i have dreamed about, but NO lost sleep here wondering what will or will not happen.

Go with the flow - buy if in range, if not then don't buy.  To me, it's just that simple - NO one tells me what i do or do not need !

Wake up and smell the roses - unless they are Frozen or Dried-DEAD.

Jimlw1


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: digitaldan on April 05, 2019, 07:03:06 PM
Article about ATSC 3.0 at next weeks NAB show. Just some FYI.




Code:
https://www.tvtechnology.com/show-news/atsc-3-0-gets-multiple-platforms-at-2019-nab-show


EDIT......... 40 markets to have ATSC 3.0 deployed by 2020.... 
Code:
https://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/atsc-3-0-to-be-deployed-in-40-u-s-markets-by-end-of-year


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on April 10, 2019, 10:45:36 AM
Nothing really new.
A list of major markets has been provided that are expected to have atsc 3.0 by the END of 2020. Most likely though, at least a few if not many of these markets will not have atsc 3.0 until sometime in 2021. The frequency repack will not complete until the middle of year 2020. Some of these markets cannot start the transition to atsc 3.0 until the frequency repack completes.

ATSC 3.0 is dead until tuners that support it are available.

Here is a list of the markets that are supposed to have atsc 3.0 by the END of 2020:

    New York, NY
    Los Angeles, CA
    Chicago, IL
    Philadelphia, PA
    Washington, DC
    Boston, MA
    Atlanta, GA
    Tampa-St.Petersburg-Sarasota, FL
    Minneapolis - St. Paul, MN
    Miami - Ft. Lauderdale, FL
    Denver, CO
    Cleveland-Akron, OH
    Sacramento-Stockton-Modesto, CA
    St. Louis, MO
    Charlotte, NC
    Indianapolis, IN
    San Diego, CA
    Hartford-New Haven, CT
    Cincinnati, OH
    Milwaukee, WI
    Greenville-Spartanburg, SC - Asheville, NC
    Norfolk-Portsmouth-Newport News, VA
    Oklahoma City, OK
    Albuquerque - Santa Fe, NM
    Grand Rapids - Kalamazoo, MI
    Memphis, TN
    Buffalo, NY
    Providence - New Bedford, RI
    Little Rock - Pine Bluff, AR
    Mobile, AL - Pensacola, FL
    Albany-Schenectady - Troy, NY
    Flint-Saginaw - Bay City, MI
    Omaha, NE
    Charleston - Huntington, WV
    Springfield, MO
    Rochester, NY
    Syracuse, NY
    Chattanooga, TN
    Charleston, SC
    Burlington, VT - Plattsburgh, NY
    Davenport, IA - Moline, IL
    Santa Barbara - Santa Maria - San Luis Obispo, CA


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: digitaldan on April 10, 2019, 01:51:58 PM
Code:
https://advanced-television.com/2019/04/08/us-proposes-atsc-3-0-as-digital-standard/


 Worldwide sounds intriging......
Code:
https://www.broadcastbeat.com/2019-nabshow-atsc-3-0-deploying-worldwide/



Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: digitaldan on April 12, 2019, 08:12:08 AM
TiVo on to something it appears....  Just because we don't hear about new tuners for the new system does not mean they aren't working on having something soon. I am of the belief that all at once with no warning we will have several tuner options for the new system in the next 365 days.Just my humble opinion. At least TiVo owners appear to be covered.

  
Code:
http://zatznotfunny.com/2019-04/tivo-atsc-3/

Code:
https://www.cordcuttersnews.com/the-first-next-gen-ota-atsc-3-0-tuner-is-being-demoed-at-nab


EDIT: Added second link.


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: Jeff S. on April 16, 2019, 12:19:48 PM
We should have our ATSC 3.0 dual tuner unit out by late August 2019.
This will be a Android 9 Certified unit in Linux.
Casey will have the specification & feature list shortly.

The triple will follow of S2/ATSC/IP.

Sorry for the delay on the new 4K S2 unit. The SW is still not proper yet!

Regards,

Jeff Schumann
Manhattan-Digital


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: digitaldan on May 05, 2019, 07:52:50 AM
Here is another angle for the new system. Plans for literately connecting to cars and upgrading the on board computers. Now that alone would be cool. Never have to visit the dealer again for a computer programming change!

Code:
https://www.wileyconnect.com/home/2019/2/14/on-the-move-in-2019-atsc-30-and-connected-cars



 


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: Titanium on May 06, 2019, 02:59:28 PM
My two cents...

Yes, ATSC 3.0 will be available in many markets by 2020 and some early adopters and techno geeks will jump right in and buy the latest gadget available to be cutting edge. The majority of OTA viewers are cost conscious cord cutters or multiple TV households and they will be motivated by the termination of the ATSC 1.0 signals.

In the early years of dual 3.0/1.0 illumination, the majority of 3.0 viewers will be those who must purchase a new TV and it will include a built-in ATSC 3.0 tuner by default. With the extended dual illumination of 5 years, likely the the rush to buy a TV with ATSC 3.0 tuners or a converter STB will be when the ATSC 1.0 signal goes dark.

People change when it is forced on them to do so...


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: Hyper on May 06, 2019, 05:53:11 PM
My two cents...

People change when it is forced on them to do so...


100% agree with this.


 ::agree


And this sounds like me too .....






Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on May 08, 2019, 06:26:53 PM
The only ones promoting ATSC 3.0 right now are trying to make money from it.

There is very little reason or incentive for the average consumer to pay for this new system. For the first 5 years and maybe longer, most ATSC 3.0 programming will be identical to what is available for ATSC 1.0. ATSC 3.0 will favor the advertisers, and can invade the privacy of the consumer.

Here are a couple of video links that demonstrate ATSC 3.0 capabilities.

Code:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWuqtV6TefY
Code:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nHhRQ_Z-4Ss



Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: Jeff S. on May 09, 2019, 10:09:55 AM
Wow, such negativity again. First ATSC 3.0 was just a scam and now the feds are infiltrating into your household. I'm not sure how that can happen since this is a receive only system.

I guess you failed to miss the point. The latest report 1.2 million people turned off their satellite and cable system this last 1st quarter. They are switching to a cord-cutting system which is just changing carriers to a new pay service that is cheaper. What they are doing is purchasing an outdoor antenna to go along with this system. The ATSC 3.0 system is not about commercials, that corrupt game has already started by our corrupt government. It is very sad that we do not have any input on this system. We cannot control that anymore until we get rid of the political parties, which control how the commissioners are appointed at the FCC.

The real question is, when people go purchase a new tuner box, should they purchase an existing ATSC 1.0 box. That would be foolish wouldn't it. Despite all of your conspiracy theories our intentions from the start is to promote the future of OTA and bringing down people's costs with over-priced services. Yes, we are in business to make money, but we have to diversify in order to survive in this FTA market. 

Our box will costs less than most ATSC 1.0 boxes on the market today, plus we will be Android 9 certified while the others are not. It is what the consumers want!

If you think bringing new products to the market is easy and cheap, guess again. This is not an easy system as we are still working on this product and a lower costs USB unit. There are always hills to climb and now with the possibility of tariffs on the horizon, it just creates another hill for us to climb!

We will continue to bring in products as this box was the stepping stone for a future triple play S2,IP, ATSC 3.0 box. We just had to start at this point with ATSC 3.0 because it made sense!

We again give thanks to the people on this forum for their kind words and support to us and the industry!

Regards,

Jeff Schumann
Manhattan-Digital 


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: MikeBear on May 09, 2019, 01:52:00 PM
 Jeff, I wish this forum had a "like" button for posts. I for one will purchase an ATSC 3.0 tuner device when it comes out, and if it has TWO Atsc 3.0 tuners, all the better! I for one appreciate your efforts, and hope it's successful.

I'm not sure why so many people think that ATSC 3.0 "is nothing but a scam", but I pulled the plug on Dish Network several years ago, and am outside antenna only, with a Tivo Roamio for recording.

I can't wait for ATSC 3.0 to come out!


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on May 09, 2019, 03:19:09 PM
I don't think anyone here has called ATSC 3.0 a scam or said the feds are infiltrating into your household. Reading what is actually written is difficult for some I guess.

ATSC 3.0 is designed to be interactive, which means it can gather or log personal data. A .pdf about this is attached.



Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: Jeff S. on May 09, 2019, 04:41:10 PM
I understand El where you are coming from. If the broadcaster sets the standard and if you are using the IP section to run ATSC 3.0.. Again these are standards from 2017 and the ATSC consortium only recommends these standards. The only thing we have to abide from is the standards of the FCC with the early warning weather and amber alert system. Along with the other standards previously set  in ATSC 1.0 like closed captioning pass through.

You cannot get your data stolen if you are only receiving the signal from the tower. We are not adapting any standard to perform this. Nor do we have to where the data of your watching habits report back to the broadcasters. Even Sinclair in not even adapting that model! Not to say it will not happen in the future, if the consumer allows it. 

We are running Android because consumers want Netflix and Amazon in 4k. The tuner section is a totally separate media from the IP section.

Some people will sign-on to Nielson or other programming tracking services because the want the consensus to know which programs are important to them. Again it is all voluntary!

Jeff S.
Manhattan-Digital


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: digitaldan on May 10, 2019, 08:55:09 AM
I don't think anyone here has called ATSC 3.0 a scam or said the feds are infiltrating into your household. Reading what is actually written is difficult for some I guess.

ATSC 3.0 is designed to be interactive, which means it can gather or log personal data. A .pdf about this is attached.



 Your cell phone already knows all your data and has for years. So has Face Book and all other so called "Social" networks. So what is the "Scare" tactic with the  announcement that they will log data??? I just don't understand. First there was a cost issue. Besides Manhattan, LG and others have announced that they will support the system as it come out in the areas it appears as it appears. Also a single tuner can be used in conjunction with a network and provide ATSC 3.0 throughout the house and or property depending on ones own network So if you have a smart TV, no worries as it hooks through the network to the tuner. Then there is the old "They will carry the old signal for years" remark. Although somewhat true, stations all over the place such as PBS, Low Power, and stations that can't get to an agreement for signal carriage are getting a waiver that allows them to "Flash cut" straight to the new system. So some channels will be missed as that happens unless you have a tuner. Do you need one now? Do you need one ever?? Depends on what you want and your local. Already here in the South Bend Indiana market the frequency change is well underway. The stations are getting new transmitters and getting the capabilities for the new system. Pretty stupid to buy a new transmitter and not upgrade. That's like buying a 5 year old computer! So this next year, Physical year meaning this time next year we all will see the changes and my guess is with 50. dollar tuners being tossed out there that will unlock the new system, the changeover will happen faster than we all care to admit. JMHO. Have a good one!


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on May 10, 2019, 11:22:28 AM
"Scare" tactic Are your words. Please take time to fully watch the second video in post #24 and you will be educated or at least understand what some will be concerned with. Not everyone has  a smartphone or a Facebook account.

PBS is  a Public Broadcasting System. Do not look for them to go to ATSC 3.0 without keeping an ATSC 1.0 option.

Low Power Television Service or LPTV  has a limited viewing area when compared to a full power tv service in the same area, and does normally not have the profit margin of a full power television service. You can think what you want or advertise what you want, but it would be suicide for any of these stations to switch over to ATSC 3.0 right now, and probably for at least 5 years to come. You can expect a lot of the LPTV's to stay at ATSC 1.0 indefinitely.  We will see...




Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: digitaldan on May 15, 2019, 06:43:38 AM
Not scare tactics. Truth. Here is the filing.

Code:
https://ecfsapi.fcc.gov/file/10220062617978/PMC%20Comments%20-%20ATSC%203.0%20FCC%20Further%20Notice%20of%20Proposed%20Rulemaking.pdf

 Page 5 is clear about the Flash-cutting. Posting and talking about developments isn't scare tactics. It is simply being informative.

 Then there is the decision.... Paragraph 40 and 41 tell about the exemption from simulcasting is exempted for LPTV stations and TV Translator stations.

  "d. Simulcast exception for LPTV and TV translator stations
40. We exempt LPTV and TV translator stations from our local simulcasting requirement and
allow these stations to elect to transition directly to 3.0 service. LPTV and TV translator stations electing
to transition directly must first file an application to convert their facilities to 3.0 operation. In addition,
they must comply with the MVPD notification and consumer education requirements adopted herein.
41. We adopt this simulcast exception for LPTV and TV translator stations in recognition of
the fact that they face unique challenges in locating a simulcast partner. As a practical matter, many are
not located near another LPTV or TV translator station and they may not be attractive simulcast partners
for full power stations because of their lower power and coverage area.121
 In addition, because LPTV and
TV translator stations are secondary, they are subject to displacement by primary full power and Class A
stations, further reducing their desirability as partner host stations. Absent an exemption from our local
simulcasting requirement, LPTV and TV translator stations could be denied the opportunity to implement
ATSC 3.0 service until the Commission eliminates the simulcast requirement.122

42. We recognize that permitting LPTV and TV translator stations to transition directly to
ATSC 3.0 could deprive those OTA viewers without ATSC 3.0 TV sets or converter equipment of the
important programming these stations provide.123
 MVPD subscribers could also be affected if MVPDs
are not prepared to carry ATSC 3.0 signals on the date of a direct transition.
124 Although we recognize
that permitting LPTV and TV translator stations to transition directly may cause some consumer
disruption, in light of the unique circumstances faced by LPTV and TV translator stations we conclude
that providing these stations with the option to transition directly will best ensure that they are able to
deploy ATSC 3.0 technology.
43. Exempting LPTV and TV translator stations from the local simulcasting requirement will
have the added benefit of allowing these stations to serve as “lighthouse” stations, thereby providing an
ATSC 3.0 host option for other full power, Class A, LPTV, and TV translator stations that wish to partner
with them.125
 LPTV stations could, therefore, serve an important role in market-wide simulcast
arrangements by permitting other stations to experiment with 3.0 service while maintaining ATSC 1.0
service on their existing facility. As noted above, our goal is to encourage Next Gen TV broadcasters to
initiate 3.0 service on another facility initially while maintaining their 1.0 simulcast signal at the station’s
existing location, when possible, to help avoid disruption to viewers and MVPDs. LPTV stations that
elect to transition directly and to serve as ATSC 3.0 host stations could thus play a significant role in
facilitating the conversion to 3.0 technology.126
 While viewers without ATSC 3.0-capable equipment
would lose access to LPTV and TV translator stations that elect to transition directly, these stations may
also provide innovative 3.0 programming that could help drive consumer adoption of such equipment.
Thus, on balance, we believe that the benefit of permitting these stations to transition directly outweighs
the potential harm.
44. Finally, our decision to exempt LPTV and TV translator stations from our local
simulcasting requirement will ensure that analog LPTV and TV translator stations and stations that have
been displaced due to the post-incentive auction repacking process are not forced to build both an ATSC
1.0 and an ATSC 3.0 facility. The Commission has determined that LPTV and TV translator stations
must complete their transition to digital service by July 13, 2021.127
 The Commission previously changed  this deadline to ensure that analog LPTV and TV translator stations would not be forced to complete their
digital conversion only to find that their newly constructed digital facilities were displaced as a result of
the incentive auction repacking process, thus necessitating a significant additional expenditure to locate a
new channel and modify their digital facilities accordingly.128
 Many digital LPTV stations will also be
required to seek new channels and construct new facilities as a result of the incentive auction. By
exempting LPTV and TV translator stations from the simulcasting requirement, we similarly avoid
forcing these stations to make significant expenditures in new ATSC 1.0 facilities by July 13, 2021 only
later to be faced with a further expenditure of resources if the station chooses to convert those facilities to
ATSC 3.0.129

45. We decline to restrict the ability of LPTV and TV translator stations affiliated with a
broadcast network to directly transition, as advocated by ATVA.130
 We are not persuaded that there is
any reasoned basis to give network affiliated stations less flexibility than other secondary stations in this
respect.131
 These stations may face the same challenges finding a simulcast partner as other LPTV and
TV translator stations, and we believe they should have the same opportunity to serve as potential ATSC
3.0 “lighthouse” stations.132
 We note that we are affording LPTV and TV translator stations with the
opportunity to transition directly, but are not requiring them to do so.133
 Thus, any LPTV or TV translator
station that wishes to deploy ATSC 3.0 service may elect to air both an ATSC 1.0 and ATSC 3.0 stream
by partnering with another station rather than transitioning directly. Stations that transition directly could
also consider taking steps to minimize the disruption to viewers, such as offering free converter devices
(e.g., an external tuner dongle, set-top box, or gateway device) that enable ATSC 1.0-only receivers to be
upgraded to receive ATSC 3.0 transmissions. LPTV and TV translator stations that elect voluntarily to
simulcast must comply with the simulcasting requirements we adopt herein, including the substantially
similar programming requirement and the coverage requirements related to ATSC 1.0 and 3.0 signals.
Applying these requirements to LPTV and TV translator stations that simulcast is consistent with the goal......."

 And I could go on for many more pages. But for those that need all the info here is the link... In those pages you will read that ALL LPTV stations must have Next-Gen TV by 2021. That is a FCC requirement now it appears when you read the new rules.

Code:
http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2017/db1120/FCC-17-158A1.pdf

 Like I have said before. I do not pretend to know more than the people actually deploying this new system.


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on May 15, 2019, 09:24:14 PM
The transition from ATSC 1.0 to ATSC 3.0 is strictly voluntary!
No LPTV station has to transmit Next-Gen TV or ATSC 3.0 by 2021. ATSC 1.0 can continue indefinitely. You are welcome to show where any FCC document states otherwise.

PBS gets its operating money from where?
LPTV gets its operating money from where?

You will be mighty lucky if any PBS and LPTV stations switch to Next-Gen TV or ATSC 3.0 standards for at least a few years. The only way most of these types of stations can afford to switch will only be when Next-Gen TV or ATSC 3.0 tuners are commonly found in American households. It will take years for that to happen, not months. Some PBS and LPTV stations will probably stay at ATSC 1.0 indefinitely.

The mesh dish salesman says the cord cutters are switching to c band satellite.
The ATSC 3.0 salesman says the cord cutters are switching to OTA tv services.
In reality, more cord cutters are switching to IPTV services than satellite or OTA tv.

ATSC 3.0 is designed to be used with an internet connection. Will be interesting to see how that goes over.  Kendra Chamberlain has some thoughts about that and explains a rational reason for the "free" ATSC 3.0 smartphone chips. (See link)

Code:
https://broadbandnow.com/report/sinclair-next-gen-tv/



Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: digitaldan on May 16, 2019, 07:17:45 AM
The transition from ATSC 1.0 to ATSC 3.0 is strictly voluntary!
No LPTV station has to transmit Next-Gen TV or ATSC 3.0 by 2021. ATSC 1.0 can continue indefinitely. You are welcome to show where any FCC document states otherwise.

PBS gets its operating money from where?
LPTV gets its operating money from where?

You will be mighty lucky if any PBS and LPTV stations switch to Next-Gen TV or ATSC 3.0 standards for at least a few years. The only way most of these types of stations can afford to switch will only be when Next-Gen TV or ATSC 3.0 tuners are commonly found in American households. It will take years for that to happen, not months. Some PBS and LPTV stations will probably stay at ATSC 1.0 indefinitely.

The mesh dish salesman says the cord cutters are switching to c band satellite.
The ATSC 3.0 salesman says the cord cutters are switching to OTA tv services.
In reality, more cord cutters are switching to IPTV services than satellite or OTA tv.

ATSC 3.0 is designed to be used with an internet connection. Will be interesting to see how that goes over.  Kendra Chamberlain has some thoughts about that and explains a rational reason for the "free" ATSC 3.0 smartphone chips. (See link)

Code:
https://broadbandnow.com/report/sinclair-next-gen-tv/





  Well good day my friend. Lets take this one by one to help you understand. To the first point you make. Switching is voluntary. Correct. So was manufacturing cars in the day of the horse and buggy. How did that work out for those that stuck with the horse and buggy?

 Your second question... I did post the document if you care to read it. And that is not an ordinary document. That is an "Order". The rules if you will that were just changed recently. In that paper it tells how the LPTV and PBS stations can't afford to do the frequency switch and go for the new system unless they can flash-cut. So the rules were changed to allow that. Maybe not on your planet, but they were here as you will see if you read the entire document before offering an opinion. For your information with all due respect my local PBS station already has a banner up telling of PBS Kids coming soon. As far as doubting about PBS? DOH! They are supported by us along with Government Grants! The government is paying their way with some proceeds from the auction. At least that is the way it is set up. By the way certian other stations are getting grants to pay for stuff to. Who Knew? Anyway they can't afford to buy a new transmitter for the frequency change and then go to the new system. So they get exempted from the double illumination of their signal and are allowed to go straight to the new system. For me that means this fall. Here the stations that must change frequency have bought and installed new ATSC transmitters and can flip as early as this November. One station already has lit up 6 more sub-channels in preparation. Maybe Atlanta is stuck in the Flintstone era, but the rest of the Country is not.

 As for the tuners, it has been spelled out again in the document from the FCC if you even care to read it. The chip that was released last February is a chip that covers all standards in broadcasting. The demand for that regardless of the new ATSC 3 system is plenty to keep the price down because it can be made and used now by currant broadcast standards worldwide.

 Next point.... Your so called mesh salesman.... No mesh salesman is saying that unless they think you are not smart. The problem with that is 5G.... They are stripping bandwidth from the C-band spectrum. They are talking having to get new LNB's as opposed to a new dish in order to block out the 5G interference they are expecting. Read up on the 5G stuff my friend.

 Now to cover the other salesmen you remarked about. The streaming and OTA guys. Well they are in kahoots together! The new system allows for streaming. Now I don't know about other peoples preferences but the studies have shown that people are streaming and mounting antennas. That is a fact weather anyone believes it it not. I really don't care. There are people that think even today the world is flat. So now with the new system the user will not have to do anything but press a button. No web site to go to. No browser or VLC Player to bring up. Just simply press one button on your TV or Tuner remote. Oh yea... I almost forgot.... The tuner box for the next-gen system can be hooked into your network so it can distribute TV throughout the house over WiFi. No wires to run. Don't need no tuner for each room. Wow! That would even keep the cost down per household!

 Finally I thank you for the article. it was very informative. It is also very outdated. But to put my 2 cents worth in on that so every base is covered here.... If you have a cell phone, they already know more about you than any TV system will. So if you have a cell phone and are worried about others getting your data...... Well then you would be known as Schizophrenic in the world of psychiatry. One minute everything is OK. The next everyones out to watch me... That is a classic symptom. The latest on the data collection is that it will be used just ;ike social media. Targeted advertising.

 That is the truth people weather you like it or not. Weather you believe it or not. Is their any hurry to rush out and buy for the new system? No.
But then I wound up buying my first HDTV set late 2008! And no it was not expensive as naysayers said it was going to be. The reason that this was made "Voluntary" to switch is because enough stations are going to change because they need new transmitters ans sticks to move to the mew assigned frequency that they will buy ATSC capable transmitters ans sticks. The rest will either get on board or go the way of the Horse and buggy. That is just a simple fact of life. Either keep up or die as a business.


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on May 24, 2019, 11:41:14 PM

No credible company has marketed an affordable ATSC 3.0 tuner in North America to date, and it will probably be well into 2020 before affordable ATSC 3.0/1.0 tuners are available.

The Media Bureau will start accepting applications towards the end of May, 2019 for ATSC 3.0 transitions. An application may take some time to process, then it may be months or even years before the transition processes outlined in the application are completed.

There are concerns as to whether ATSC 3.0 will be better than ATSC 1.0, so an application to convert an ATSC 3.0 facility back to ATSC 1.0 service is available.
Quote
As we have argued throughout this proceeding, if the ATSC 3.0 transition is to be truly “voluntary” for all parties, broadcasters should not obtain carriage of ATSC 3.0 signals (in which viewers may have little interest) by threatening existing television service (in which viewers have a great deal of interest).  This is especially important if, as one of the transition’s largest backers seemed to indicate recently, ATSC 3.0 signals turn out to be no better for television viewers than ATSC 1.0 signals are.

It also seems that a decision has yet to be made as to whether LPTV can transition directly to ATSC 3.0. Some are arguing against it.

The transition from analog to ATSC 1.0 caused some end users to lose tv signals. The transition from ATSC 1.0 to ATSC 3,0 may cause some end users that are on ATSC 1.0 to have a degraded picture.   GN Docket No. 16-142 is attached.


I guess a 4K OTA picture would be nice, but even that seems unlikely.
Quote
Better Pictures’ Not the ‘Ultimate Best Use’ of ATSC 3.0, Says Sinclair CEO,” Communications Daily (Feb. 28, 2018) (“The ‘first iteration’ of 3.0 for Korean broadcasters ‘has just been focused on better resolution, better pictures, which we don’t think is the ultimate best use of that technology, and I think they’ll agree,’ said Ripley.”)

The bottom line so far for this transition does not look that good for the end user. The advertisers benefit more than anyone else. ATSC 3.0 will continue to be dead until affordable tuners are available to view it, and until televisions stations are transmitting it.


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: digitaldan on May 27, 2019, 10:12:00 AM
 Thanks for the PDF. I read it. I also noticed that the date was last year. The recent decision this year about the "Flash-cutting" was on that very petition from last year. In other words they reconsidered and this last decision is the answer. Simply put not all stations can afford to simulcast. Namely PBS stations.

 On the tuners... Both LG and Samsung are ready to go. Samsung has one out that translates to $37.00 U.S. Something like 41,000 Korean.

Code:
https://www.samsung.com/sec/tv-accessories/uhd-kit-sek-m90/

 And then their is LG... 
Code:
https://imgur.com/a/iN4s6

 These are ready to go now. Simply a marketing decision as to when here in the states. The ATSC 3.0 standard is meant to be world wide. All they have to do is ship here as told by John Taylor of LG......

   “You’re a year or so early,” he said. “We’re trying to time the introduction of the product with the critical mass of Next-Gen TV broadcasting, and the whole industry seems to be moving toward a 2020 product launch.” Taylor did seem fairly certain that the 3.0 sets would be populating manufacturers’ exhibit spaces at the 2020 CES to “prime the pumps” of buyers who would be at that show to decide what to stock their stores with for the 2020 holiday buying season.

And while others in the industry have hinted that there may be a problem with delivery of some of the components needed for 3.0 sets, Taylor was quick to state otherwise.

“There’s no technology issue at all,” he said. “It’s a business marketplace consideration about the right time to introduce the product in the U.S. market. We could ship the product today. As you know, we’re shipping ATSC 3.0 TVs in Korea, but it has to make sense for the U.S. market and that’s heading towards 2020.”

Taylor noted that LG and its Zenith R&D subsidiary are providing receiver products and technical support for some of the U.S. ATSC 3.0 field trials.

 So no problem there.

 Now that all said here is the other side. You are correct to point out some issues. But the issues are with interference. Here where I am I sit between two markets. Ft.Wayne and South Bend in Indiana. Ft.Wayne has installed some new ATSC 3.0 equipment. This is happening because of the repack. Stations aren't going to buy transmitters that are not ready to go on the new system. Sinclair has FOX and CBS here. WNIT the local PBS station has banners up already advertising the PBS Kids channel that PBS has stated will be their new 3.0 broadcast. "Coming Soon" it says. Well the repack is to be complete by October and one month has been allowed to "Test".  I for one really want to get a tuner just so I can play and be curious. Right now ABC 57 moved to the sister station CW 25 because of the interference from Ft.Wayne. Channel 28 added 5 more channels. Stuff is getting done. We just do not hear about it. To the remark the Sinclair CEO made, He is correct. They are looking at using some of the capability they will have to do things like upgrade your car computer as you drive. This system will be linked to the 5G that is happening. Many think they are competitors. They are partners IMHO. Also right now I can attest that reception sux. My FM reception and almost all of the TV stations are very weak to the point of not getting them. I.E. I get 95.3 radio from Battle Creek instead of Niles. Niles is closer by a long shot.  But with the lowered power so towers can be climbed and new equipment like transmitters can be installed, this is the norm. I listen to my station for now through the App they have. Things here will be better in a few months as the work wraps up. Glad it is happening now! At least I can get outside in the summer!

 


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on May 27, 2019, 12:52:36 PM
As of May 23, 2019, no final decision has been made for LPTV transitions.
I also cannot find any subsidies or documents stating monies were transferred to PBS stations for ATSC 3.0 transitions. You are welcome to post documents that support this, but I doubt any exist.

From attached GN Docket No. 16-42:
Under the Commission’s rules, LPTV and TV Translators are exempt from the local simulcasting requirement. 47
CFR § 74.782(b). This exemption is currently subject to a pending Petition for Reconsideration. Petition for Reconsideration of American Television Alliance, GN Docket No. 16-142, at 5-8 (filed Mar. 6, 2019)

Documents and editorials are not "Dated" or "Out of Date"if the information in them still applies. Sometimes it takes months or years for final decisions to be made.


The ATSC 3.0 Korean tuners or electronic equipment in your links are not suitable for use on ATSC 3.0 systems that are currently being tested in the United States.


Car companies already have the capability to send operational software updates to vehicles. These types of updates are not done OTA or wireless due to safety concerns. A vehicle is taken to a certified service department for these updates for more than one reason. Maybe this will change at some point in the future, but probably not in the next several years.


Features of consumer ATSC 3.0  tuners thay have yet to be manufactured are only speculation until they are tested and released. Most of the claimed features for ATSC 3.0 tuners already exist in some ATSC 1.0 systems.


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: danristheman on May 27, 2019, 11:19:48 PM
Hey Dan I live in the fort wayne area near you. They got a new encoder at CW station added 5 more channels. I have asked them about ASTC 3.0 its still far off they said. If you are saying what you are saying I should be able to test out the 3.0 stuff real easy. I used to work for Kings antenna service he would like to get his hands on a ASTC 3.0 receiver. I can get all the way around the area here in Angola.


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: digitaldan on May 29, 2019, 07:48:44 AM
Hey Dan I live in the fort wayne area near you. They got a new encoder at CW station added 5 more channels. I have asked them about ASTC 3.0 its still far off they said. If you are saying what you are saying I should be able to test out the 3.0 stuff real easy. I used to work for Kings antenna service he would like to get his hands on a ASTC 3.0 receiver. I can get all the way around the area here in Angola.

 Correct my friend. The equipment they put in if they are involved in the frequency shift, is ATSC 3.0 ready. Many stations will just add an exciter for 3.0 transmission. Also the Government is taking the money they got from the auction and giving it to the stations to cover the costs. We just do not hear about it. As for the "It won't happen for awhile" remark, many are tight lipped about the transition for some reason. My guess as to that is that it will kill the TV set sales. I wouldn't buy one knowing there is a set time to use it. That is just common sense.

 As far as the Tuners being different around the world. That is a lie. The top dogs for LG and Samsung say otherwise. They will know more than I or anyone else I don't care who you are. So I default to their judgement. They say the hardware is the same. And bearing in mind that this will be eventually a world standard, the equipment would have to be the same. Phones will work internationally. TV will be international not regional like it is now.

There’s no technology issue at all,” he said. “It’s a business marketplace consideration about the right time to introduce the product in the U.S. market. We could ship the product today. As you know, we’re shipping ATSC 3.0 TVs in Korea, but it has to make sense for the U.S. market and that’s heading towards 2020.”
 
 That quote is from LG. They know more than I and everyone else when it comes to their product. If they say the sets are the same, then they are. I won't propagate a lie by continuing to feed a falsehood about hardware differences.


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on May 29, 2019, 10:48:25 AM
The ATSC 3.0 devices that you have posted links for do not work correctly for our ATSC 3.0 test stations. This has been documented on other forums, so you need to do some checking before you start saying something is a LIE.


ATSC 3.0 transitions are Not being subsidized by the Federal Government at this time. Tax payers are Not supposed to pay for this transition.

The only area in Indiana slated to have ATSC 3.0 soon will be Indianapolis. There are no hidden ATSC 3.0 transitions taking place.

A nice webinar is available for those that want to learn about the ATSC transition from people that actually know.

Code:
https://cpbnet.webex.com/ec3300/eventcenter/recording/recordAction.do?theAction=poprecord&siteurl=cpbnet&entappname=url3300&internalRecordTicket=4832534b000000044f5749e2b768fe682f7605a0cc6bab9f1f6b14aa907652805a34804060fc9370&renewticket=0&isurlact=true&format=short&rnd=3849745509&RCID=58d6b05f510b8c85fddc9c872dbfd001&rID=99270017&needFilter=false&recordID=99270017&apiname=lsr.php&AT=pb&actappname=ec3300&&SP=EC&entactname=%2FnbrRecordingURL.do&actname=%2Feventcenter%2Fframe%2Fg.do

Quote
Duration:    1 hour 21 minutes
Description:    Dennis Wallace, a leading expert in the field of ATSC 3 from the engineering consulting firm of Meintel, Sgrignoli and Wallace, along with representatives from PBS, APTS, and BIA Advisory Services will review the technical, regulatory, and business aspects of ATSC 3, along with the latest ATSC 3 news coming out of the NAB Show. With the approval of the ATSC 3 standard, pilot market tests are underway across the country and public television stations are moving forward in considering their options -- with many questions along the way. The panel will provide answers to all of your questions on the opportunities and challenges of ATSC 3.




Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: digitaldan on June 02, 2019, 08:26:01 AM
I don't know about what you have been told. But here is the reality....

 
Code:
https://www.multichannel.com/news/fcc-frees-up-more-money-for-tv-station-repack

 The spectrum auction is allowing for the money to be awarded to stations having to repack. That is a must and not voluntary. The stations are buying new transmitters and equipment that is ATSC 3.0 ready because of the repack. When done all they will need is a software update to the new equipment or if they have the software already then they flip a switch.  No station that cares to stay on the air is going to buy ATSC 1.0 only equipment. If they did then I have some ocean front property in the middle of Iowa I will sell them at a bargain price. Over a billion has been awarded and appropriated by Congress. So whoever said that no money has been handed out is uninformed to say the least and I don't care about who they say they are. Congress has done it. And as stated in the above article, more is on the way.

 This critter they call ATSC 3.0 is constantly changing and morphing. Things are changing every day. Even the repack is running ahead of schedule. Also another tidbit. Some of the wireless carriers like T-Mobile are helping with the costs.


 And to close you said...  "The ATSC 3.0 devices that you have posted links for do not work correctly for our ATSC 3.0 test stations. This has been documented on other forums, so you need to do some checking before you start saying something is a LIE."

 Well again I was showing what the head of LG has said. So go ahead and call him a liar if you like. But if that guy says the systems are the same then they are as far as I am concerned. ATSC 3.0 is going to be a world standard. Can't have that if the systems are going to be different in different countries. So that is the end goal. Will it happen world wide? Who knows at this point. Have to wait and see as the application to make this a world standard has just been turned in for consideration.

Code:
https://www.broadcastingcable.com/news/t-mobile-help-kxas-move-early-172373

 And that is old news too. The money is not really the problem some would like people to believe my friend.

  


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on June 02, 2019, 10:25:12 AM
Repack funds from the Government only pay for the parts needed to change frequencies, and the additional costs that are directly associated with changing frequencies.
Repack funds do not pay for ATSC 3.0 systems.

The ATSC 3.0 devices that you have posted links for do not work correctly for our ATSC 3.0 test stations.  The head of LG did not say the devices you posted links for work correctly for our ATSC 3.0 test stations.


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: digitaldan on June 03, 2019, 07:35:11 AM
Repack funds from the Government only pay for the parts needed to change frequencies, and the additional costs that are directly associated with changing frequencies.
Repack funds do not pay for ATSC 3.0 systems.

The ATSC 3.0 devices that you have posted links for do not work correctly for our ATSC 3.0 test stations.  The head of LG did not say the devices you posted links for work correctly for our ATSC 3.0 test stations.

 Like I said... If you care to read my friend.... The stations that are involved in the repack is using the repack money and getting new equipment. The new equipment is ready for the new standard. Does that mean they will switch at the same time? Don't know. But they will have the capability to do so. It really would be stupid and ignorant to buy new ATSC 1 only equipment. I don't know any station managers that are that stupid or ignorant...... Face it the change is closer than one thinks.

 
 Here is the Senior Vice President of Public Affairs at LG. To me that is a Top Guy. Or at least one of them. He said....


“There’s no technology issue at all,” he said. “It’s a business marketplace consideration about the right time to introduce the product in the U.S. market. We could ship the product today. As you know, we’re shipping ATSC 3.0 TVs in Korea, but it has to make sense for the U.S. market and that’s heading towards 2020.”  That was from an interview from TV Technology at this years CES. So that answers your comment about standards being different like they are today. ATSC 3.0 is so flexible we can have differences between stations here in the states. But the overall format is the same. That is the way it was designed.

 And to settle the debate on a tuner.... Genotech has been around.... Gee, What do we have here???

Code:
https://shop.geniatech.us/product/a683/


 Looks like an ATSC 3.0 receiver to me! Fairly cheap too! 70 bucks from what I hear. There isn't supposed to be anything like this out I thought........ Oh yea... Manhattan is going to have on this year also. They have been around too and seem to be a legitimate company. Heard it was going to be cheap too. Go Figure.

 As far as the test station and the South Korean tuners go I have read mixed results. The truth is we don't know if they work or not because the testing is a closed deal. LG says the technology is the same. I have an old cable tuner. But it won't work either unless they allow it to. Satellites work the same way. They call it scrambling I think. Don't know if that is happening in the test bed areas, but it would make sense during the test. Would I buy a Korean receiver? Not at this time. But the chip that was unveiled a few months back in Feb. covers all standards.

 Again I am not trying to scare anyone or argue.  I am doing my best to be polite in spite of being called a liar in a round about way.....Maybe the switch will take awhile. Maybe it won't. I am just posting news from those that know more than all of us.

 So get mad. Get upset and scream and say this isn't going to happen. Fact is It is happening like it or not. Maybe on it's own timetable. Each station will decide. But coming late this year and all of next changes will be happening.

 To close I could say a lot more. But sworn to secrecy for now. People will hear more at the proper time and that will be dictated by the market. Just remember.... Just because people aren't talking about changes at the local level doesn't mean that changes are not happening. Quite the opposite my friend. Enjoy the ride!




Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on June 03, 2019, 08:16:38 AM
The tuners you posted a link for in post#35 do not work correctly for our ATSC 3.0 test channels. Nowhere did I say the ATSC 3.0 standards are different.

Here is part of the reason those tuners do not work correctly for us:
Quote
As I've already shown they already exist in mass production in Korea. Unfortunately what I've learned so far is that the box I imported from there last year cannot decode any 3.0 subchannel that isn't in 2160p! You see, over in Seoul, the ATSC 3.0 stations there are just 1 2160p subchannel and nothing else, basically they believe 4K is the be all end all use case.

I sent the box down to Phoenix, where the 3.0 transmitter is 2 1080p and 1 480p subchannel, and the box sees the channels but displays nothing more than a black screen.
 kc9pke, Dec 16, 2018

It will be interesting to see how much a tuner costs for ATSC 3.0 that does work correctly. Having a picture posted on a website, and being able to actually purchase the product are two different things...

Manhattan has being saying since 2017 that they would release ATSC 3.0 tuner, or a box that has this capability. You lose credibility when you continue to say you are doing things and do not do them. Maybe a product will actually appear soon from this company instead of more excuses.


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: Hyper on June 03, 2019, 09:16:02 PM
Great thread so far, with lots great info, great articles, and lots of opinions.

Please remember to keep all discussions and all comments friendly and respectful.

We are all here to help each other.

To learn/share info.


Thanks.



 ::smiley








Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: Titanium on June 04, 2019, 02:07:57 PM
Interesting when the leading North American trade magazine for the broadcasting industry presents an opinion on selecting a subpar format and heading down the wrong rabbit hole... again. Not as much worldwide support for ATSC 3.0 as the hype would lead us to believe...

Code:
www.tvtechnology.com/opinions/how-dvb-t2-and-atsc-3-0-stack-up-technical-benefits-limitations-and-real-world-deployments


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on June 04, 2019, 10:11:57 PM
DVB-T/T2 IS what the U.S. should have gone to instead of ATSC 1.0.

Quote
ATSC 3.0 and DVB-T2 are both state-of-the-art digital television systems with advanced features like interactivity. The main technical differences lie in the transport mechanisms (IP for ATSC 3.0 vs. MPEG2-TS for DVB-T2) and content protection schemes (MPEG-CENC for ATSC 3.0 and CA/Simulcrypt/Multicrypt for DVB-T2) used. Ultimately, DVB-T2 has successfully been deployed by multiple countries across Europe, serving a combined population of more than 3.5 billion

A lot of places recently made the transition from DVB-T to DVB-T2, and they will not be interested in making another transition anytime soon. It is hard for me to see ATSC 3.0 becoming a worldwide standard in the near future, especially with many services transitioning to the Internet.

T-Mobile purchased a lot of licenses in the last auction, and has covered the cost of some tv stations moving so they could access the frequencies they paid for. This shows how desperate, and how hungry they are for frequency spectrum.
There is probably more demand for the rest of the tv spectrum than most realize. Switzerland is set to end all OTA terrestrial broadcasts this year. Other countries countries in Europe may do the same soon.

OTA terrestrial television is at least 70 year old technology in the United States. Some advancements have been made over the years, such as improvements in picture quality, and audio quality. ATSC 3.0 is part OTA, and part internet. Would be easy to see the United States dumping OTA terrestrial service in the next 10-20 years because the tv frequency spectrum could be used more efficiently for other things.  ATSC 3.0 could be the first step in this direction because part of it has to run on the internet.

There was an article I saw on a pay site about 3 LPTV stations that already transitioned to ATSC 3.0.  These three LPTV stations had a transmitter power of around 130 watts, with an ERP of around 1.5 KW.  If this is True, these 3 stations transitioned to ATSC 3.0 with no OTA audience because very few 3.0 tuners exist.  The internet would be the only way to view these channels right now for most people. I am looking for more information about these three stations, and also wonder if the information I have seen is correct? If True, the only thing that makes sense to me is they are holding the frequencies in hopes of getting money for them later.

ATSC 3.0 Does Not want you to record shows and fast forward through the commercials!
I have also seen where provisions are being made make it impossible to record ATSC 3.0 programs, then fast forward or skip the commercials. It will be interesting to see how this feature plays out, and how well it is received by the general public!


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on June 05, 2019, 07:40:50 PM
At least one station in Atlanta will acknowledge or admit they will transition to ATSC 3.0:
Quote
WSB-TV Talk2Us (CMG-Atlanta) <talk2us@wsbtv.com>   
2:55 PM (4 hours ago)

Thank you for being a viewer.  Not this year, but hopefully within the next 2 years.  In September of this year, we are required to move channels.  Currently, we broadcast on UHF channel 39 and on September 6 we will be moving to UHF channel 32.

WSB-TVis a high power station. Probably safe to assume most if not all high power stations in Atlanta will also transition if possible. So the question is what channels or services will I lose? High power stations are required to dual illuminate, which most likely means I will get WSB-TV twice while losing a different station or service.

Attached is a terrestrial scan in .xml format that has 90 services. Atlanta is not the biggest terrestrial market, but it does have a respectable amount of terrestrial services. About the only duplicate services that I have right now are PBS/PBS KIds.  Once WSB-TV transitions, I will have WSB-TV twice, and will most likely lose a yet to be announced service somewhere else. More stations transitioning will likely mean more duplicates and more services lost...

There is some light at the end of the tunnel. Current rules say dual illumination can end sometime in 2023. Some stations will probably wait that long to make the ATSC 3.0 transition.


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on June 06, 2019, 08:09:21 PM
Here is some information taken from the attached transition manuals:

Stations should note that the FCC’s repack reimbursement rules only allow funds for like-for-like expenses.
Thus, adding V-pol or the field conversion capability may not be covered by the repack reimbursement program, but stations should consider supplementing the reimbursement amount to make the purchase at the time of repack, to avoid much greater expense in the future.

The following equipment changes will need to be made when implementing the ATSC 3.0
platform:

* ATSC 3.0 specifies HEVC/H.265 video compression, which is two generations ahead of MPEG-2, the ATSC 1.0 codec. New encoders, which include IP encapsulation, will be required.

* Data server systems with software modules supporting service signaling, service management, program and service guide information, and emergency alerting management will be required.

* The new system requires the addition of gateways, where final signals are managed and assembled before they’re sent via the Studio to Transmitter Link (STL) to the transmitter.

* Replacement of Studio to Transmitter links with IP-based systems is likely.

* Exciter/modulator replacement with an ATSC 3.0-capable unit is likely, assuming that the current exciter is not software-upgradable.

* Assessment of the usefulness of current transmitters when adopting ATSC 3.0, which employs a different modulation standard (OFDM) than the current system. Implications to consider include maximizing transmitter power output vs. replicating the coverage area and adding Vpol to the antenna to improve mobile reception.

* Because peak power is higher for an ATSC 3.0 system than it is for ATSC 1.0 transmissions, broadcasters will need to carefully assess their antenna systems’ needs, assuming that the antenna was not replaced during repack with one that supports the ATSC 3.0 requirements.

There is more involved in a trabsition than the average person realizes.
A short list of ATSC 3.0 transistion considerations could be:
(1)Encoding
(2)MPEG-DASH Packager
(3)Signaling/Guide Manager and ROUTE Encoder
(4)Gateway, System Scheduler & Manager
(5)Studio to Transmitter Link
(6)Exciter
(7)Transmitter
(8)RF System: Filters, Combiners and Transmission Line
(9)Add vertical polarization (This could require additional transmission line and antenna)
(10)ATSC 3.0 specifies HEVC/H.265 video compression, which may require replacement of various studio equipment, and replacement of mobile news gathering equipment.


Title: Re: ATSC 3.0
Post by: elbandido on June 13, 2019, 10:16:09 PM
A member of the Hauppauge Sales Team says they are actively working on ATSC 3.0, and hope to be shipping the finished ATSC 3.0 product by the end of 2019. I have several Hauppauge ATSC 1.0 usb tuners. These tuners work very well with FTA enigma2 receivers. A new Hauppauge 955Q usb tuner for ATSC 1.0 may cost around $80.00 U.S. It will be interesting to see how much money a Hauppauge ATSC 3.0 tuner sells for.