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Author Topic: 600+ FM Stations Could Be Affected by TV Repack  (Read 4629 times)
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digitaldan
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« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2018, 01:33:01 PM »

Quote
The transition is voluntary. However they (FCC) did set a deadline to end 1.0 transmissions at 5 years from initial broadcast.

To clarify this statement...... The FCC has set a 5 year limit on the ATSC 1.0 signal after that station begins to broadcast ATSC 3.0 signals. (Each station will have around 30 days to test as they start to broadcast then signal must be available to the public). So if station ABCD starts 3.0 this year, in 5 years they will have to stop 1.0 transmissions. Then let's say station WXYZ starts 2 years from now. Then 5 years from that is when they will be required to stop 1.0 transmissions. Now does the FCC regard the 30 day period as part of the 5 year time? Or does the clock start after that?  Who knows. There is no blanket time to stop as the change is voluntary at this time. It is based on each station as they make the switch. That said our Government is famous for changing the rules in almost any game they play so maybe keep that in the back of your mind. Hope this clarifies any confusion. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
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elbandido
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« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2018, 03:13:53 PM »

Please check your information or post the FCC mandate ending ATSC 1.0.

There is Not a deadline for ATSC 1.0 transmissions to end. The transition to ATSC 3.0 is voluntary. Only the repack is mandatory.

Just as an example, the last changeover of ATSC transmissions from analog to digital was never completed. There are still analog ATSC tv stations on the air. You will see the same with ATSC 1.0.

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digitaldan
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« Reply #17 on: February 19, 2018, 09:10:40 AM »

Code:
http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2017/db1120/FCC-17-158A1.txt


This is the real deal. Read it for yourself. It will take a few hours. Have a great day.
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DRCars
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« Reply #18 on: February 19, 2018, 11:35:38 AM »

Quote
The transition is voluntary. However they (FCC) did set a deadline to end 1.0 transmissions at 5 years from initial broadcast.

To clarify this statement...... The FCC has set a 5 year limit on the ATSC 1.0 signal after that station begins to broadcast ATSC 3.0 signals. (Each station will have around 30 days to test as they start to broadcast then signal must be available to the public). So if station ABCD starts 3.0 this year, in 5 years they will have to stop 1.0 transmissions. Then let's say station WXYZ starts 2 years from now. Then 5 years from that is when they will be required to stop 1.0 transmissions. Now does the FCC regard the 30 day period as part of the 5 year time? Or does the clock start after that?  Who knows. There is no blanket time to stop as the change is voluntary at this time. It is based on each station as they make the switch. That said our Government is famous for changing the rules in almost any game they play so maybe keep that in the back of your mind. Hope this clarifies any confusion. Sorry for any misunderstanding.

If this is what you are referring to:
Quote
 The substantially similar requirement will sunset in five years
from its effective date (i.e., the date it is published in the Federal Register) absent further action by the
Commission via rulemaking to extend it.
then, that doesn't mean they MUST stop simulcasting "substantially similar" content on the ATSC 1.0 channel. It means they don't HAVE to. It appears that you're thinking deadline and that makes you think they must stop. The FCC "sunsets" the requirement, as in, no longer requiring it. It does not appear from the above statement that it is a deadline to stop.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 11:38:56 AM by DRCars » Logged
elbandido
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« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2018, 02:01:46 PM »

Quote
The transition is voluntary. However they (FCC) did set a deadline to end 1.0 transmissions at 5 years from initial broadcast.

To clarify this statement...... The FCC has set a 5 year limit on the ATSC 1.0 signal after that station begins to broadcast ATSC 3.0 signals. (Each station will have around 30 days to test as they start to broadcast then signal must be available to the public). So if station ABCD starts 3.0 this year, in 5 years they will have to stop 1.0 transmissions. Then let's say station WXYZ starts 2 years from now. Then 5 years from that is when they will be required to stop 1.0 transmissions. Now does the FCC regard the 30 day period as part of the 5 year time? Or does the clock start after that?  Who knows. There is no blanket time to stop as the change is voluntary at this time. It is based on each station as they make the switch. That said our Government is famous for changing the rules in almost any game they play so maybe keep that in the back of your mind. Hope this clarifies any confusion. Sorry for any misunderstanding.
None of this makes any sense. Please read the attached FCC document if you want to have a decent conversation about ATSC 3.0. Pay special attention to pages 42-44.

From the attached document:
Next Gen TV Tuner Mandate
We revise our rules to make clear that there is no Next Gen TV tuner mandate. TV
receivers capable of receiving ATSC 3.0 signals are not yet available in the U.S.  Without revising our existing rules, television receivers would be required to include ATSC 3.0 tuners when broadcasters begin transmitting ATSC 3.0 signals....We conclude that a tuner mandate is unnecessary at this time given that the deployment of ATSC 3.0 will be voluntary and market-driven and that broadcasters will continue to transmit ATSC 1.0 signals indefinitely.

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Jeff S.
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« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2018, 03:51:02 PM »

El,

Yes, most everything that is said here is true. Plus the fact that congress will make changes to this as the political season progresses.

The suppliers and retailers are mandating the equipment requirements, not the FCC. Us the manufactures do not want to provide an outdated product as well because that will give you a bad name. Plus some broadcast stations are requiring product with 3.0 in it and they will support that product. So why not make it available now instead of waiting and adding the product later on. The same goes for the TV manufactures which we could care less if they have 3.0 tuners in. That only generates more business for us!

That includes files sharing. I could care less what people do with these systems and private content. But when it's mandated by the programmers/content providers, we have to listen. We cannot include it in our equipment.

The day I listen to the FCC on this subject is the day we go out of business! That includes the corrupt ATSC board as well! We listen to the broadcasters, retailers and partners.

The one point made in the document is that once you go to 3.0, you cannot go back to 1.0..
When the lights turn off on 1.0, no-one knows is my best guess. Everything is market driven.

Take care everyone!

Jeff S.
Manhattan-Digital






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elbandido
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« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2018, 05:03:40 PM »

Where is: "once you go to 3.0, you cannot go back to 1.0" located in the document?

OTA analog broadcasts are still being used today. How long has it been since the transition to digital? Most likely, ATSC 1.0 will live at least another twenty years based on what we have seen with the first OTA transition.
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Jeff S.
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« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2018, 05:58:15 PM »

El,

I forget what page the FCC indicated that. But regardless, the marketing side of it would not make sense. Why would a broadcaster move to ATSC 3.0 and then switch back to 1.0?

Lets talk bandwidth sharing, SD won't cut it. Why would you want SD channels instead of HD channels? Then have better reception, the equipment and master antenna paid for in each market?

Time frame, who knows. But it will happen faster than you think. Yes, analog for the South is still there with the religious channels. All the tuners that are coming in are 1.0/3.0 tuners. So they run both systems. Or like the 60% will watch channels from the Internet and pay for them. 

The major concern I have is the adjoining markets and the bleed over for our rural people. They may have to watch programming from their antenna from another market.

There are choices, but Congress is not done with this either as changes will happen after the first of many repacks.

Regards,

Jeff S.
Manhattan-Digital
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elbandido
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« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2018, 11:33:53 PM »

Analog OTA transmissions are being used for more than religious broadcasts. Analog OTA transmissions are supposed to end (again) in 2021 unless it is extended.

"Once you go to 3.0, you cannot go back to 1.0" Is not in any government document that I can find. There is no tuner mandate, so it looks like the FCC could care less if you use ATSC 1.0, then 3.0, then again 1.0. I cannot see that many changes by a single station making any sense at all, but the main concern of the FCC seems to be Only the frequency repack.

The 300,000 - 400,000 dollar cost to switch from ATSC 1.0 to ATSC 3.0 will probably keep a bunch of terrestrial stations from doing anything for several years. The frequency repack was paid for, but the individual tv station will have to pay for the transition from 1.0 to ATSC 3.0. The requirement to illuminate both ATSC 1.0 and ATSC 3.0 during the changeover or transition, which the FCC seems to think is about 5 years, will only add to the Station's red ink. At least the dual illumination can be waived by the FCC and it does not apply at all to LPTV.

You can say what you want about tuners, but ATSC 1.0 tuners and televisions will be made for the next year or two at least, or until all of the ATSC 1.0 parts are gone. The first ATSC 1.0/3.0 televisions will be expensive. Watch and see!

ATSC 3.0 will officially be here when someone can post a video of a non-test ATSC 3.0 stream that is received using consumer grade equipment. Good luck on seeing that before 2019.

They have been testing ATSC 3.0 in the U.S. for a couple of years. Nobody has been able to watch it except for the testers. Doubt that changes much in 2018 unless you want to pay a nice sum of money for a new tv. Newly released ATSC 3.0 USB tuners or tuner cards will probably be 2-3 times more than a comparable ATSC 1.0 product. New technology usually costs more when it is first introduced, and I do not expect this time to be any different.

There is no Government coupon for a ATSC 1.0 to 3.0 converter box. The converter cost will be completely on the consumer.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 11:36:05 PM by elbandido » Logged
digitaldan
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« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2018, 09:38:45 AM »

 Interesting read. At the bottom of the article it mentions starting roll out next month in certain areas. My look on analog signals is around here there is none. I don't care if there is still a signal someplace that has them, it does not include me. So to say in the real world that analog is still "Used" is a little miss leading. The percentage of coverage does not serve the masses.

Code:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/atsc3/0031/wraltv-demo-showcases-next-gen-tvs-potential/282789

 Also for what it is worth.... I have read several places in the search for info that the chips are only about a buck each. I'll look for those articles again. :)  We all know that this will involve a change over time. That said, I was only saying that the people interested could possibly start seeing the new system this year. Never intended this to involve into a debate. Everyone knows that debating the Government is impossible. I am sure we all will know more on this in a few months as what the article above states happens. Sinclair is going to push it from everything I have seen. That teamed up with that the masses love to be the first on the block to get the latest deal, then it becomes a "Keep up with the Jones"  thing, common sense tells it will start to become reality. Just look at the demand now for the latest in TV technology. Everyone wants the latest with the new screens (4K) even though ther is not much 4K to watch. Enjoy the day!
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elbandido
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« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2018, 11:34:32 AM »

Your link shows nothing but test stations, and no consumers can watch them due to lack of equipment.

Analog TV is still used in Atlanta. See link.
Code:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WUVM-LP

Atlanta has many tv stations. Here is a sample of some that are available.
Code:
https://www.rabbitears.info/market.php?request=print_market&mktid=10

Atlanta is a great test area due to the millions of people in the area. ATT will roll out 5G
service for the Atlanta area this year. New equipment will be needed to use it.


None of the Atlanta tv stations have made any kind of announcement (testing or other) about ATSC 3.0.
Here is what high powered WSB tv says about it:
Quote
Pearcey, Gary (CMG-Atlanta) <Gary.Pearcey@wsbtv.com>

As ATSC 3.0 is evolving, it presents exciting opportunities for viewers, combining the versatility of the internet with the speed of over the air broadcast to provide an engaging media experience.

While we have plans to embrace this technology in the future, we will not be broadcasting over-the-air in ATSC 3.0 this year.

Thank you for watching WSB-TV.

Gary Pearcey

WSB-TV Engineering




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digitaldan
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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2018, 07:53:05 AM »

Again...... And for the last time.. All I am doing is posting info about the new system for those that are interested as I find it. Why a mod from another site has to be so argumentative at this site is beyond me. I will continue to post what I find and let the people consider what to do. You can argue all you want with yourself. People can make up their own mind and read for themselves. I say argumentative because a debate is only a debate if the mind is open to other possibilities. Maybe your right. Maybe not. Time will tell. We will have more info soon enough. I also wasn't aware that the Country follows Atlanta.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 07:59:27 AM by digitaldan » Logged
digitaldan
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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2018, 08:53:31 AM »

Code:
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/02/02/2018-01473/authorizing-permissive-use-of-the-next-generation-broadcast-television-standard

 Points about the 5 year thing I was talking about are at numbers 95 to 97. That is what I was talking about. Maybe I did not understand it. The above was just published in the Federal register on feb 2nd. So there is the FCC talking. Like I said, maybe I am miss reading it. Also something to watch......

Code:
https://redzonereceiver.tv
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elbandido
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« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2018, 11:06:42 AM »

Atlanta has a many OTA stations. You can expect Atlanta to have ATSC 3.0 when it is available to the public. This will also apply to other big cities or areas where there are lots of tv stations.

Would like to know when ATSC 3.0 consumer devices are available for purchase. Nothing more. Because without the consumer devices, you have no public ATSC 3.0.  

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Keith Brannen
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« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2018, 12:09:06 PM »

digitaldan, I, for one, certainly appreciate elbandido's replies on this thread, as he has been spot on in his replies as to the real situation.

Your pointing to numbers 95 to 97 refers to 3.0 standards (A/322) required for approximately 5 years, not to an limit on a simulcast in 1.0.

In fact, my quick reading seems to suggest that 1.0 will be indefinite (for the time being) as the broadcaster must continue to broadcast a 1.0 signal even when the switch over to 3.0. Especially important is that the mandatory carriage rights apply only to their 1.0 signal (and I don't think any broadcaster will want to give those up ever!).

As I live in Canada, I have no idea what affect this will have here. All I know is that when we did the switch to digital we lost out big time as many stations (CBC, for example in my area) and repeaters shut down, in the CBC's case, claiming that less than 5% get their TV from OTA, so bye-bye!

Thanks to the CRTC (our version of the FCC) that basically said that any TV channel (specialty channels, for example) already on cable or satellite could not then be also broadcast as a sub-channel on OTA, there are very few sub-channels (might be one or two) in Canada.

As well, since the switch (digital cliff vs analogue snowy drop off) it also meant a loss of carriage area. For example, with my indoor antenna I use to get around 11 or more channels of varying strength. Two shut down, and I now get only 5 on the same antenna. I also lost all three major networks (CBC shutdown, other two never a peep when I re-scan). Now it could also be the tuner in my TV (Vizio) isn't that sensitive, but still, not the outcome I certainly expected when the switch to digital was first announced!

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