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Author Topic: Metal roof on our house a problem for OTA antenna?  (Read 1690 times)
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elbandido
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« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2017, 03:36:17 PM »

It is pretty easy to rent a lift. This is much easier than trying to climb the tower and install using a gin pole.
Here is an example from Home Depot:
Code:
http://compactpowerrents.com/rental-equipment/aerial-equipment/50-ft-towable-boom-lift/

Consumer or Homeowner antennas are not built to withstand heavy icing, but then again, the cost of a consumer antenna is about 1/10 or less the price of a heavy duty commercial antenna. I have had my top tv antenna up for about 10 years, and it has held up well. The Atlanta, Ga. area does not see a lot of snow and ice, but we have had some pretty rough weather during the last ten years.

Here is a link to a FM, UHF, VHF antenna that I consider to be decent for people that do not live near the city:
Code:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Channel-Master-Deep-Fringe-Masterpiece-100-Mile-Range

Complete the install with a good, heavy duty rotor with quality control cable and RG11 for a feed. Properly weatherproof all outside connectors. Use an amplified splitter of around 10db on the inside.

Why RG11 and not RG6?
A decent quality RG11 does not have much db loss at 700 MHZ per hundred feet as compared to RG6. Using a bigger amplifier to make up for the loss of RG6 will not give the same performance as RG11.
Line amplifiers may only be used to cancel or minimize the loss of coax, splitters, and connectors. Amplifiers do not improve the signal for the antenna itself. RG11 is more like being connected directly under the antenna as compared to RG6.

Putting everything together and testing it before installing on top of the tower will save rental time on the lifting equipment.
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vze59zgb
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« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2017, 06:17:38 PM »

Based on your TV Fool Report, i think for an outside antenna the RCA ANT-571 would be a decent choice for an outdoor antenna.

Check out this thread for that antenna, plus a few others that forum members have tested:

http://legalfreetoair.com/index.php?topic=33807.0

For an indoor attic antenna check out this one:

http://legalfreetoair.com/index.php?topic=47819.0

Both these will work well in the 40 mile range

If you need to get those channels 70+ miles out you will need a big deep fringe antenna, and those are expensive!
                           metal roof will not affect signal but get it about 5 foot high i installed some antennas on mobile homes with metal roofs no problem i am useing a winegard tv antenna think they are the best
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El_Viejo
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« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2017, 08:04:53 PM »

The tower is certainly tall enough to get you away from any bad effects of the roof, I would think. It is an older type of tower. I haven't seen them here is Indiana for many years. If you would consider adding a set of guys, I think you be better off trying to put up the antenna w/rotor if they were in place. It  looks like it has a slight lean.  What is  your prevailing wind there?

Sounds like you are on track with the 36" dish for Ku, it should give you pretty good results. Best trying to get the 10 foot bud, it will work good for both Ku and C band. Look around on here on how you can get more than one satellite on one dish. It saves time as having to wait for a motor to move your dish. Providing all the sats you are interested in are close together. I have been an amateur radio operator over 50 years, you said you had up a shortwave antenna, is it for swl or amateur radio? later,  Viejo
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E_V
The old tomcat sat on the backyard fence, his feet were full of blisters; his head was up and his tail was down, and the wind blew through his whiskers.
Ubuntu 18.04.1 LTS AMD64 ASUS M4A7XTD EVO
True FTA: DMSI Hotdish90 (37") for 91W, 97W and 103W; Samsung JS851C11 (33") for 123W ITC; DN pro plus for 118 ITC & 125W; Winegard DS3101 1Meter 103W, Prodelin 1.2m for 99W-C.    All going to a Amiko Nano HD, an OpenBox S9, Linkbox 9000i Local, and Manhattan 1978.
MikeBear
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« Reply #18 on: December 14, 2017, 10:52:18 AM »

Based on your TV Fool Report, i think for an outside antenna the RCA ANT-571 would be a decent choice for an outdoor antenna.

Check out this thread for that antenna, plus a few others that forum members have tested:

http://legalfreetoair.com/index.php?topic=33807.0

For an indoor attic antenna check out this one:

http://legalfreetoair.com/index.php?topic=47819.0

Both these will work well in the 40 mile range

If you need to get those channels 70+ miles out you will need a big deep fringe antenna, and those are expensive!
                           metal roof will not affect signal but get it about 5 foot high i installed some antennas on mobile homes with metal roofs no problem i am useing a winegard tv antenna think they are the best

I agree with this. Get your antenna installed AT LEAST 5 feet higher above your tallest roof line, and you shouldn't have much issues.
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Hyper
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« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2017, 06:44:22 PM »

Don't think he should consider an attic antenna because the metal roof would block most if not all signals.  JMHO  Viejo

That makes sense to me, and i agree.
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Hyper
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« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2017, 06:59:24 PM »

The RCA ANT-571 can easily be put on your antenna tower sliderule if you choose to go that route. I know you are leaning towards an antenna on top of that tower with a rotor and that would be  a good set-up for max channels, especially for a 1 room system.

But with a dedicated OTA antenna, you just install it, point it, lock it down, and it gets the channels you want. Never have to rotate it so no "lag" when you change channels while waiting for the antenna to rotate.

Also, one less thing to stop working (rotor). Boy does that suck when you want to watch something and can not rotate the antenna because it stopped working for some reason.

PLUS, with the ANT-571 you do not have to climb to the top of the tower, just bolt it on anywhere, 5 ft above roof, 8 ft above roof, whatever.

Lastly, it is cost effective. I think i paid well less than $50 for mine, shipping included.

I own several of these, all dedicated/fixed. I do not use a rotor. I feed these to different tv's in the house, 1 antenna for each room.

Perfect system for me.

No electricity burn at all because i dont use a rotor, dont use any kind of powered amplifier, no powered splitters of any kind.

OK, thats all i have to say.

Looking forward to seeing what you get and to your results. Good luck!


beers
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My son Evan, taken from his family and friends on March 26, 2010 at the age of 15. We love you and miss you Evan. We will see you again soon in heaven. I miss you son. You were the best son a dad could have. I am so proud of you. Save a place for me.
armadillo_115
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« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2017, 09:34:44 PM »

I grew up using 'arm-strong' rotators.

That's the one where you reach out the window and turn the pole. It made an arm strong when the pole was froze in the ground.  Cheesy
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« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2017, 12:29:04 AM »

ARM, I couldn't reach mine through the window, had to go outside and let someone holler at me. lol...   Viejo
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E_V
The old tomcat sat on the backyard fence, his feet were full of blisters; his head was up and his tail was down, and the wind blew through his whiskers.
Ubuntu 18.04.1 LTS AMD64 ASUS M4A7XTD EVO
True FTA: DMSI Hotdish90 (37") for 91W, 97W and 103W; Samsung JS851C11 (33") for 123W ITC; DN pro plus for 118 ITC & 125W; Winegard DS3101 1Meter 103W, Prodelin 1.2m for 99W-C.    All going to a Amiko Nano HD, an OpenBox S9, Linkbox 9000i Local, and Manhattan 1978.
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« Reply #23 on: December 20, 2017, 08:33:27 PM »

Been busy spending 'rs and 'rs studying up on antennas.  Wow, what a crazy world they are.   Impossible to compare apples to apples and decide what to buy and all rather confusing.   Looked at the ANT751 and I see  there's 3 or 4 similar/same brands.  No specs from RCA.  And I've found some comments that seem to say that RCA cheapened it up a bit and it's their 7511 mini version that's being sold as the 751R/Z?  I could get a Winegard HD7000R on ebay for $39 but it seems a fair bit wider?  Looking at TVfool, I don't need low-VHF and I don't really want the one and only channel we have that is low VHF anyway.  Don't need shopping, religious and/or non-english stations either, which we have plenty of on OTA here.

I could possibly get an Antennacraft C490 for $50-60 which is about what I'd pay for an ANT751.  The C490 could be waay overkill tho?  Could get a CM-3016/3-18 for $60-80.  If I get a longer range antenna which would be more directional, I'd need a rotator for sure which is like around $200 or I could use 2 or 3 ANT751 (or similar) in fixed positions and never have to worry about adjusting direction.  If I were to go with 2 or 3 fixed position antennas, how would you pre-aim them accurately enough before tilting the tower back into place?  Maybe get a separate VHF and a long-range UHF antennas?  I also see that some discontinued antennas can still be found with some searching and some *might* perform better or be better made?  What to do, pffft?

But there are some whiz-bang, sexy looking, compact antennas by the thousands on ebay & Amazon for around $20-30 complete with rotor!   Some even rated for 150 miles!!    Heck, could even afford to get a couple of spares.   rolleyes

Looking at my TVfool report, I'm not sure if it's worth trying for the poor signals 100 or so miles away?  Would be fun to try but don't want to waste time and money on it.  There's a few stations down Seattle way that would be nice to get.  I compared mounting an antenna at 20' to 40' and there is little improvement.  But mounting an ant. on the tower would get it 5-10' above the metal roof.

Have been planning to get some PPC weather-seal connectors for outside and will have to get a crimper.  RG-11 sounds like a very good idea.  Not sure what to do for a preamp.  If I get a high gain deep fringe antenna, not sure what brand/type preamp (ant. mounted) to get and don't want it overloading the receiver.

The tower is certainly tall enough to get you away from any bad effects of the roof, I would think. It is an older type of tower. I haven't seen them here is Indiana for many years. If you would consider adding a set of guys, I think you be better off trying to put up the antenna w/rotor if they were in place. It  looks like it has a slight lean.  What is  your prevailing wind there?  

At first I thought that was like a "haha, made you look" joke but decided to check to see if there really is a lean.  :) Must be the photo because it still looks pretty vertical when outside.  It's an old tower I got off CL that was on a farm nearby, probably from the 50s/60s.  Wind is def. a concern.  We get 2 or 3 big windstorms each winter, some bad enough to topple trees and knock power out in a widespread area.  No trees on our acreage to block wind.  A long antenna would worry me.  Not sure if you can guy each end downward to the tower?  

Sounds like you are on track with the 36" dish for Ku, it should give you pretty good results. Best trying to get the 10 foot bud, it will work good for both Ku and C band. Look around on here on how you can get more than one satellite on one dish. It saves time as having to wait for a motor to move your dish. Providing all the sats you are interested in are close together. I have been an amateur radio operator over 50 years, you said you had up a shortwave antenna, is it for swl or amateur radio? later,  Viejo

Just got my GeosatPro receiver (thx Hypermegasat) and SG2100 motor yesterday.  Been trying to get it working today but no luck yet.  It looks like I bought myself a nice 10' BUD.  It's 500+ miles away but luckily I have a relative there who will go get it and ship it here.  The owner just dismantled it for me which helps a lot too.  Can't wait to see it in person.  I have a vintage Yaesu FRG-7 receiver.  Got a Heathkit SW receiver for Xmas many decades ago when about 13 and later got interested in ham radio.  Started code classes but didn't see it through to the end (can't recall why).  I was an electronics whiz kid in high school when vacuum tubes still ruled the world.  Technology sure has changed!

All this looking into antennas has also got me thinking about doing something better than the Winegard Sensar IV antenna on top of our travel trailer.  We camp around WA & OR a lot and have been to a few other western states.  Did some studying up on specific campground locations on TVfool and interestingly, some locations do not benefit at all from an antenna mounted 10' higher and in a few cases even makes some stations worse.  A couple of locations appear to benefit a lot from a higher antenna.  Has me wondering if a bigger/better antenna on a telescoping pole would make much of a difference.  Also seems like a separate ATSC tuner could help too if there is such a thing a a high performance one.  The TVs that come in some RVs don't work as well as ones you'd buy for your home.  Getting a few more stations, or sometimes some that you wouldn't otherwise get, would be nice, esp. when it's not possible to get sat. reception.



« Last Edit: December 20, 2017, 08:41:44 PM by sliderule » Logged

Gil
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elbandido
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« Reply #24 on: December 20, 2017, 09:47:41 PM »

TVfool is only a suggestion under a set of computer generated circumstances. Reality will most likely be different than TVfool. What is between your antenna and the transmitting antenna dictates more of what you need.

A small antenna with a couple or three elements has very little gain, but has a wide beamwidth.

An antenna with many elements will have more gain, which means more signal, but it also means less beamwidth.

It may be best for you to get a small, inexpensive antenna and use it for signal tests. Then if you need more signal, you can buy a bigger antenna. The amount of signal you have will vary depending on weather or atmosphere conditions, and to an extent on smog and pollution. TVfool pretty much assumes perfect conditions, but it is a good information source.

RG11 is low loss, so a preamp for runs around 30 meters or less is not really needed unless you start splitting the feed.
Preamps do not improve the antenna signal. They can only make up for line loss, and preamps will raise the noise floor. Best to avoid using them if possible.

There are some smaller coaxes that have about the same amount of db loss per hundred as RG11. These coaxes are 100 percent solid copper center conductor, and 100 percent solid copper shield. You can expect to pay around 10 - 15 dollars U.S. per meter for this type of coax. When it comes to your cables, you more or less get what you pay for. The coax in Lowes or Home Depot is mostly junk, but it is cheap. Most people only look at coax price, and not the performance.
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El_Viejo
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« Reply #25 on: December 20, 2017, 11:27:31 PM »

RG-11 usually does not lend itself to "F" connectors. RG-6 would be a better route to go. I agree with bandido's idea of a small antenna to test with and if results are promising you could get a larger antenna. Yes, I will have to agree on the technical specifications for tv antennas. Some of them don't seem to make any sense, but I guess all that comes from having to make an antenna with a very wide frequency range. However, UHF antennas don't change size a lot for the band they cover. They probably don't need to change since the FCC sold off so many of the channels to other services. I have been giving some thought to one of those with the built in rotor, myself. By the way, I think Hyper may sell one of those, or he used to.  JMHO   Viejo
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E_V
The old tomcat sat on the backyard fence, his feet were full of blisters; his head was up and his tail was down, and the wind blew through his whiskers.
Ubuntu 18.04.1 LTS AMD64 ASUS M4A7XTD EVO
True FTA: DMSI Hotdish90 (37") for 91W, 97W and 103W; Samsung JS851C11 (33") for 123W ITC; DN pro plus for 118 ITC & 125W; Winegard DS3101 1Meter 103W, Prodelin 1.2m for 99W-C.    All going to a Amiko Nano HD, an OpenBox S9, Linkbox 9000i Local, and Manhattan 1978.
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« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2017, 11:33:49 PM »

RG11 is all I use for my long runs. It is a good idea to have a short pig tail at the antenna, but I have no real problems using f connectors with RG11.

I think the smaller solid copper rg6 coax is better for runs under 40 meters, but most people do not want to pay the price for it.
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Hyper
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« Reply #27 on: December 21, 2017, 09:06:53 PM »

All i can add to this discussion right now is in my opinion RG11 is a pain in the butt to work with.

Too thick, too stiff  (not very flexible)  a real nightmare to use unless you absolutely need to use it.



 boxing


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My son Evan, taken from his family and friends on March 26, 2010 at the age of 15. We love you and miss you Evan. We will see you again soon in heaven. I miss you son. You were the best son a dad could have. I am so proud of you. Save a place for me.
El_Viejo
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« Reply #28 on: December 21, 2017, 09:50:01 PM »

Paying the price for RG-6 is not any different that what you pay for any other hobby you may have and enjoy.  JMHO  Viejo
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E_V
The old tomcat sat on the backyard fence, his feet were full of blisters; his head was up and his tail was down, and the wind blew through his whiskers.
Ubuntu 18.04.1 LTS AMD64 ASUS M4A7XTD EVO
True FTA: DMSI Hotdish90 (37") for 91W, 97W and 103W; Samsung JS851C11 (33") for 123W ITC; DN pro plus for 118 ITC & 125W; Winegard DS3101 1Meter 103W, Prodelin 1.2m for 99W-C.    All going to a Amiko Nano HD, an OpenBox S9, Linkbox 9000i Local, and Manhattan 1978.
elbandido
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« Reply #29 on: December 21, 2017, 10:41:05 PM »

There is about 2mm difference in the diameter of rg6 as compared to rg11. Most vhf or uhf business band radio systems use at least 1/2 inch hard line for the antenna feed line, so both rg11 and rg6 are small in diameter.
It all depends on how much line loss in db you are willing to accept. A mere 3db of loss cuts the received signal in half. The db loss of solid copper center and solid copper shield rg6 will have db losses per hundred feet comparable to the db losses per hundred of some copper coated steel center conductor rg11 cables.  

Attached are pictures of rg6 and rg11 coaxes and connectors. I think if you have problems using one, you will probably have problems using the other. I also agree that rg11 is stiffer, requires a slightly larger hole, and may require a pig tail for some connections. But I do not find either rg6 or rg11 hard to work with.

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