LEGALFREETOAIR.COM

LEGALFREETOAIR.COM HARDWARE DISCUSSIONS => Switch Discussions => Topic started by: armadillo_115 on Nov 20 2020 06:02:07



Title: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Nov 20 2020 06:02:07
I just changed from a Diseqc switching to a un-powered multi-switch. We want to add a 3rd receiver.

Only TWO receivers hooked up to a dual output lnbf during the testing phase.

Both receivers seems to be receiving and switching ok separately. But when both receivers are in use... Changing channels on one receiver, will cause the other receiver to freeze/lose signal for up to 2 or 3 seconds. Then both receivers work fine until changing channels again.

Is that normal with a multi-switch? I don't won't to cause any damage to my equipment.
Thanks in advance!


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: Hyper on Nov 23 2020 05:59:45
Hey armadillo_115 ,

Its been a long time since i ran a multi-switch, but that does not sound normal to me.  I suspect there is a issue somewhere with additional unwanted voltage coming into play here. Although i can not think for the life of me how to address the situation. Maybe someone else can chime in who knows more.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Nov 24 2020 11:14:49
Both receivers seems to be receiving and switching ok separately. But when both receivers are in use... Changing channels on one receiver, will cause the other receiver to freeze/lose signal for up to 2 or 3 seconds. Then both receivers work fine until changing channels again.

This is a very common problem, and I have had similar problems until I purchased a 2 port lnbf with 13 and 18 volt ports instead of two Horizontal and Vertical ports.

A bad multi-switch can also cause this problem. The smaller type multi-switches have given me more problems so far than the larger type of multi-switch. I also think a large multi-switch has a better chance of isolating the Horizontal and Vertical ports as compared to a small one.

My future plans call for upgrading to a pair of lnbs instead of using a dual port lnbf with 13v and 18v ports. A pair of lnbs installed on the dish and sharing the same wave guide or feed tube will give more isolation between the lnb ports than any type of dual port lnbf. A good pair of lnbs is readily available. A good lnbf with 13 and 18 volt ports is harder to find.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Nov 24 2020 02:51:10
As a simple way of testing the dual port lnbf would be to connect a receiver to one side of the lnbf and power it On. Then test and see if voltage exists on the other lnbf port. If there is voltage on the unconnected lnbf port, then you can expect to have switching problems with the lnbf.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Nov 24 2020 05:11:30
As a simple way of testing the dual port lnbf would be to connect a receiver to one side of the lnbf and power it On. Then test and see if voltage exists on the other lnbf port. If there is voltage on the unconnected lnbf port, then you can expect to have switching problems with the lnbf.

Thanks Elbandido! I hadn't thought of that.

This is a very common problem, and I have had similar problems until I purchased a 2 port lnbf with 13 and 18 volt ports instead of two Horizontal and Vertical ports.

I didn't realize that was a common problem. Aside from the glitches being a nuisance, can they damage the lnbf or receivers, etc??

I am making some progress. Some of my coax is Cooper Coated Steel rather than Solid Copper. So far, I have replaced the longest run with Solid Copper. The Zinwell still isn't working. But a different multi-switch is performing much better.

I have 2 or 3 other pieces of coax to replace. Maybe that will get more 'juice' down the line and solve the problem.

I have a short piece of coax with the stinger and shield separated in the middle. I plan to insert it and measure the voltages at the switch and lnbf. Soon as I get a round to-it. Rain coming in again tomorrow afternoon.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Nov 24 2020 05:29:27
"Juice" does not have anything to do with it unless you have so much cable attached that the dc voltage drops enough to not operate the switch. I doubt you have that much cable attached. The switch will probably need around 50 milliamps to operate. Most fta receivers can produce at least 400 milliamps continuous.

As far as it hurting the receiver, I would say that you probably should not worry as I had a similar problem on and off for years until I found a permanent solution to fix it.

The switch can be tested for correct operation by connecting two receivers to the switch without the lnb connected, Power one receiver On and set it to a vertical transponder. Then test both outputs of the switch for voltage. (Only the 13v side of the switch should have power at this point.) Next, power On the second receiver, and set it tp a Horizontal transponder, then check the outputs of the switch. ( Both 13v and 18v switch ports should have power). And for the last check, power Off the receiver with the vertical transponder, and check both switch ports for power. (Only the 18v port should have power.)

This stuff is easy enough to check, but it is also easy to have a switch or lnb that will fail after being ran for a short period of time, which causes various problems. I have had more dual port lnbf failures than switch failures, but I had enough 3 X 4 Zinwell multi-switch failures to make me not buy them anymore.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Dec 02 2020 10:21:41
New coax, connectors, and protective pipe have arrived. Still waiting on coax connector tools and better weather before continuing work and more testing. I'll probably only bury part of it where necessary. (The longest section goes down the side of a future flower bed. I can just hide it under landscape fabric and be good)  I want all cables inside protective pipe. No more cables exposed on top of the ground.

And no more moving cables around to mow come spring! That gets old.

One of my multi-switches is still working fine. Only a brief glitch when I turn on the other receiver. I can live with that.

If I can't get the ZInwell to work, I will need to buy a different multi-switch. (Or 2)

updates to come later.



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Dec 02 2020 12:51:29
Add an extra pull wire in the pipe or conduit will save time if in the future a cable needs to be added. For me, I always say I won't need it, but I find later that I need another cable.

An extra spare switch that is known to be good is nice to have. A decent switch will last years, but getting a decent replacement switch may take some time.

A voltage meter is the best tool for a multiswitch installation because you can tell exactly what is happening with the switch, plus you can check for unwanted voltage coming out of the other lnb port. I also have a milliamp meter that can be inserted inline that shows how much current switches and lnb's use.

Correct installation should give you a switching system that runs for a long time without any issues or maintenance.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Dec 02 2020 05:57:46
Thanks Elbandido, all good advice!

I'll be happy if I can just squeeze all cables into the existing pipes (under the driveway) without re-digging the trench now.

I did have room for extra cables. But..... you wanna guess where one of the new deck columns had to be poured?  ::rolleyes

I lost a 4" pvc pipe to that corner column.

It ain't easy being an armadillo. lol





Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Dec 15 2020 09:43:03
I reworked the trench across the driveway Saturday. Added two, 3/4" black water pipes in metal tubing. One pipe holds 2 new rg-6s and runs approx 170 to Mama's Bud. Other pipe (only under driveway) empty for now.
I added an empty 4"(?) cast iron pipe for future needs. (Salvage yard bargain)

Was able to keep::
One actuator cable and an RG-6, forever stuck inside old pipe. Whenever they fail, they can be run inside the cast iron pipe.
The other actuator cables. (Already inside pipe from house to Bud)
Two empty pipes for water and AC power later.

Today:
I replaced 4 CCS RG-6 feeds with Solid Copper RG-6 on Mama's Bud (Still need to replace the sidecar lnbf) While switching out the coaxes: Snapped an lnb port off the Atras Multi-switch. Dang ports are mostly plastic! 3 steps forward and 2 steps back...Oh well. Stuck the Zinwell switch back in until I replace it with something better.

Winter mix forecast for in the morning. Looks to be a good day to watch tv!

Lots more work to do...



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: Hyper on Dec 17 2020 08:15:34
Darn, you have been busy 'dillo!


If you have any pics, please share.




 ::clap


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Dec 17 2020 09:12:33
Maybe try a Terk multi-switch? It will cost more, but you might find it is worth it. Ebay has them.



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Dec 18 2020 09:47:28
I'll try and snap a photo or two. I'm not rushing the work... especially out in the cold. Brrrrrr.

I ordered more 2x4 switches (all passive):
1 GeoSatPro from Hyper  ::thumbs_up
1 Zinwell MS2X4R0-03
1 Radioshack model
 
I'll test/compare them to decide what works best for me.

I may order that Turk Multi-Switch, depending on how well these work out. Thanks for the suggestion, El Bandido.



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Dec 21 2020 09:26:18
More experimenting today:
I removed the Zinwell 4x8 multi-switch that was glitchy.

I put  a 1x4 diseqc switch on each receivers main line, connected both to 2x4 multi-switches, then to the two C2PLL's. (RadioShack 2x4 and Zinwell 2x4 Multi-switches)

Results:
Limited testing time before the boss came home but the glitches when changing polarity seems to be solved. But this setup has a different glitch. When the den receiver is turned on first, the bedroom receiver sometimes will not lock signal when turned on. It shows signal, then no signal over and over rapidly. Turning the bedroom receiver off and back on has solved the problem so far. ( I have yet to see the den receiver do the same if the bedroom receiver is started first. More testing needed)

When the GeoSatPro Multi-switch comes in, I will try swapping switches around to see if that helps. Maybe one of my multi-switches is sub-par.

The coax from grounding block to  bedroom receiver is the last(?) Copper Clad Steel remaining in use at this time. I ran out of the new solid copper coax and will replace it when I buy some more. My suspicion is that it is not passing dc voltage well.... I know the rf signal dropped some, even before the lightning strike.

BTW: All the original satellite ribbon cable that I was using had Copper Clad Steel RG6 coax. I'm still using the motor cable, But I have a growing pile of the CCS coax that I peeled off.

I doubt I'll will do more than swap switches around until after Christmas. More updates later.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Dec 21 2020 09:48:20
Why blindly swap switches or other parts? A voltmeter will show where the problem is, or where the problem is not.  All you need is a decent dc voltmeter and a piece of coax that is stripped on one end with a male f connector on the other end.

Power everything off, disconnect a receiver from one side of the lnbf and screw the piece of coax with the f connector into it. Make sure the stripped ends of the coax will not cause or allow a short, then power up the receiver that is still connected to the lnb. Let everything sit for 5-10 minutes powered up.
Now use the voltmeter and test for voltage on the other side of the lnbf that has the stripped coax cable attached. Use the receiver to swap transponders to check both H/V polarities. You have found the problem if you have voltage coming out of the test side of the lnb. (The multi-switches can be checked in a similar way.)

I tested a bad lnbf once doing what is described above. The bad lnbf tested good because I powered the disconnected receiver on and then tested for voltage at the lnbf.  Do not make the same mistake!


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Dec 21 2020 11:24:37
El Bandido, I agree and value what you say. And will do that eventually. But... 

1) I'm sure that coax needs replacing regardless. And MAY be the only problem. Just need about 40 ft of RG6 Quad.

2) Switching multi-switches around (on the ground) is easy to do. I want to know if they are all good now since I will be keeping spares for the future.

3) One leg of my step ladder sunk into a mole hole, collasped, and broke a side brace yesterday. Luckily I was only 2 steps up. I almost fell into the dish but managed to twist the other way. My back is still sore. I have to fix the ladder before messing with the lnbf's again..

Life ain't easy for an armadillo!  ::grin


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Dec 22 2020 12:12:54
A different way to do the same voltage test without any climbing and without going outside is disconnect the coax feed for one receiver and check for voltage on the disconnected satellite coax while the other receiver is powered. At any rate, stay safe! Don't become a victim of the project.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Dec 22 2020 05:32:09
First pic is toward the house.
From left to right:
1) 2 pipes coming from house, 2 crossing driveway to right. For future water and electric line going in either/both directions.
Cinder Block just holding pipes in place for now
2) 1 pipe carrying 2 new RG6 runs to dishes.
3) 1 pipe empty for future need.
3) 4" (?) cast iron pipe for any future expansion.
4) Corrugated pipe temporarily protecting motor cable for my bud, and old Rg6 coax. These 2 are entrapped due to new deck column. Motor cable needs to have approx 100 ft spliced onto it and then it won't cut diagonally across the yard. Will insert both these into aplastic pipe later.
5) 1 pipe carrying motor cables for mama's bud.

More dirt and gravel needs to be hauled to build up the driveway behind, and to right of this photo.

Second pic shows view looking toward dishes. My bud is mostly hidden by the old tomato trellises still up. Flower bed and shrubs will go on left of picture down the length of driveway. All pipes will be hidden. That pipe bowed up on right is about 200ft to use later.



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Dec 22 2020 05:41:10
OH.... and that is an upside down trash can at mama's dish pole. I'm using it to shelter my switches and connections until I can make or buy a permanent weatherproof box.

Bet you're sorry ya asked for pictures now. lol


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Dec 28 2020 07:57:00
And now for my latest frustration.

I needed a diseqc switch for the new kitchen system. Only had an old diseqc switch that was inline back when lightning hit. I figured... if it didn't work, I'd just throw it away. No biggie, I thought.

Installed the old switch. Hooked up the receiver and powered up. No signal! Figured the switch was bad and threw it away. Put the previous switch back in place... still no signal! Now I start getting concerned. Checked all my connections. Checked that I hadn't accidentally swapped coaxes around. Etc. Still no signal.

I swapped receivers around and determined that one receiver is definitely ruined.
 
Both systems were powered down during all changes. The receiver that blew was completely unhooked during the switch swap.

Can a bad diseqc switch cause the receiver to blow like that?

The only other thing I can think of was just from moving the receiver around. Maybe something shook loose.



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Dec 28 2020 09:16:09
What does "definitely ruined" mean? No lights, no menus, no HDMI...etc? What exactly is wrong with the receiver?

My experiences have been lnbs can be connected or disconnected while the receiver is running without any issues, providing no diseqc switches are involved. There is a small amount of voltage and current that can be produced by the tuner, but virtually every receiver will have safeguards that will either shut the tuner down or keep it from being harmed in the event of over-current draw, or even a dead-short in the antenna coax. I have never "ruined" a fta receiver by connecting or disconnecting the coax to the tuner while the receiver was on or off. The only thing I have ruined while connecting the coax to the lnb with the receiver running is a diseqc switch.  I have blown the ports on a few diseqc switches by connecting the lnb to the receiver while the receiver was powered on.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Dec 28 2020 10:36:40
Receiver no longer powers lnbf's. Neither horizontal or vertical. Multimeter shows 2.6 volts @ receiver, both on H and V.

It DOES function as a Slave with another receiver controlling polarity.

* The receiver I lost due to lightning a while back was the same. I now have a matching set.   ::sad


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Dec 28 2020 11:19:50
Could the lightning have damaged this receiver, and it just took a while to see it? It may or may not help to provide the make/model of fta receiver.
Check or if possible trade the power supply as a test.  My TBS 5925 usb tuner will do similar if a puny power supply is connected to it.

To possibly avoid problems in the future,
Check and make sure there is no voltage coming From the lnb into the receiver. Voltage coming from the lnb can be possible anytime multiple receivers are connected to the same lnb. For example, I may have 3-4 receivers connected to the same lnb. To test for voltage coming from the lnb, I will power On  all receivers that are connected to the same lnb except one. Then I will remove the coax from the back of the one receiver that is not powered and check the disconnected coax for voltage. Repeat the test sequence for each additional receiver in the system.

On a "healthy" fta system that has two or more receivers connected to the same lnb, you can do a blindscan simultaneously on 2 or more receivers that are connected to the same lnb and get the same or similar results on both receivers. Blindscanning is a very sensitive process, so it disrupts easily. If something is amiss, then it will probably be seen in the simultaneous blindscans.

In the past, I have had receivers that were feeding voltages back into each other, and this caused reception and scan issues. But I do not ever remember losing tuner voltage like you have due to voltage feedback. Having multiple receivers connected to one lnb can be tricky. I had problems with mine on and off for years.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: Comptech on Dec 29 2020 08:07:52
Armidillo, do like I use and others have suggested in other forums. Get a powered multi switch, solves all your worries about power to the LNB's. Just make sure it comes with the power inserter. I prefer the WNC 4x8 switches because they are not potted. If using PLL LNB's light I do, easy mod to send full voltage to the LNB's


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Dec 29 2020 09:11:29
The latest receiver was bought as a replacement after the lightning damage. Cheap ChiCom box.

My testing and working on the new setups will be on hold for a while.

Thanks for all the help so far.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Dec 29 2020 09:24:19
The fta receivers that I have purchased for less than 50 dollars new have not been the greatest examples of electronic circuitry. I doubt your actions or your antenna system system injured that receiver. Most likely, it is just poor quality in the receiver tuner and coincidence of when the failure happened. Just my guess...

Armidillo, do like I use and others have suggested in other forums. Get a powered multi switch, solves all your worries about power to the LNB's. Just make sure it comes with the power inserter. I prefer the WNC 4x8 switches because they are not potted. If using PLL LNB's light I do, easy mod to send full voltage to the LNB's
I would like to know what exactly are the advantages of a powered multi switch in a lnbf antenna system? The multi switches I have tested for current draw were around 45 milliamps.  A c band lnbf will need about 150 milliamps max. Being generous, a diseqc switch may need another 40 milliamps. Most fta receivers can supply around 400 milliamps to the lnb and switches. So why is any power inserter or powered multi switch needed in a lnbf antenna system???


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: Comptech on Aug 12 2021 06:34:52
Very late to respond, but I have two ortho feeds, one for C band and One for Ku band. All are PLL Norsat LNB's and the do you more power. If yours works fine, no problem. But I like giving mine the power that is listed on the label.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 09 2022 01:43:49
UPDATE
Still having occasional switch glitches after adding 3rd receiver. About to add receiver # 4.
I've ordered a powered multi-switch as many suggested previously.

So which option would you guys choose:
1) Mount the powered multi-switch at Dish 1 where the passive multi-switches are NOW.
    Cons- Requires running expensive 110v electric line to Dish 1. Can't be buried, so also a safety factor.
    Pros- Would be nice to have electricity near the dish.

2) Mount the powered multi-switch on exterior of house.
    Cons- Would have to add barrel connectors where passive multi-switches are now. Also a small waterproof box.
              Will be a bit challenging relocating grounding mount and coax runs from inside crawl space to outside.
    Pros- Need to add electric source at front of house, but much cheaper and safer than running to Dish 1.
             May work better with powered multi-switch feeding the longer distance???? IDK.
             Less coax needed if a 5th receiver ever added in the future.

Already have 5 coax cables running from house to Dish1, so no issue either way I go.
Have to build a waterproof mounting box either way also.

* I'm leaning toward option 2 so far. ( I can always drag a drop cord out to the dishes when rarely needed)


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 09 2022 03:59:39
For simplicity, install the powered switch where the switch is now. See if it fixes anything...

Would be a good idea to test the horizontal and vertical voltages of each receiver cable while changing the switch. Might be helpful to know what dc voltages are actually getting to the switch.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: Comptech on Apr 09 2022 05:05:39
I use WNC powered switches. Not sure of your dishes but I run a ortho feed on both the 10 foot unimesh and the 1.2 Andrews with Norsat LNB's. I have done the rad switch mod you can find on Rick's or SatGuys to supply 18 volts to all LNB's. I have my switch on the front porch about 50 feet from the dishes running 6 tuners and never have a problem. The WNC's are cheap and available on ebay if you are running LNB's. Also perfect vision solid copper RG6 with Beldon connectors.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 09 2022 06:36:55
elbandido said: "For simplicity, install the powered switch where the switch is now. See if it fixes anything...

Would be a good idea to test the horizontal and vertical voltages of each receiver cable while changing the switch. Might be helpful to know what dc voltages are actually getting to the switch"


ElBandido, good idea. I'll test the voltages as suggested first. Got to warm back up first though... it turned back cold here. Until it warms up... I'm in the "planning stage". lol

Comptech, I've had no luck whenever searching for a WNC powered multi-switch. If I find one it is either out of country, missing power adapter, or got a crazy price.

I took a chance on a USED Terk BMS-58 5x8 powered multi-switch off Ebay.... so it's a crap shot whether it will be good or not.

* After studying on it further: If i mount the multi-switch at the house, I will probably mount it INSIDE the crawlspace rather than outside. Be an easier install and I won't need a waterproof box to mount everything in. Only downside will be having to work thru the crawlspace doorway for any future work. I have an exterior electric outlet nearby that can be used temporarily.




Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 09 2022 07:15:10
I could understand the use of  powered multi-switch if you had a pair of lnbs that required 200-300 milliamps a piece for proper operation.  I doubt the powered switch helps any using a lnbf. Knowing what the voltages are for each receiver at the switch will probably give clue to the problem.

I cannot understand why you would modify a switch for 18 volt dc operation for both ports on a multi-switch when using a single lnbf with dual ports. This makes no sense as you would only have horizontal polarity.


Something that may help is removing the lnbf and using 2 lnbs. An inexpensive kit to do that is shown in the link.

Code:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002696175685.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.e21971681viiKU&algo_pvid=a411540e-d201-468a-bf3e-c0296eb99148&algo_exp_id=a411540e-d201-468a-bf3e-c0296eb99148-12&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000021753240108%22%7D&pdp_pi=-1%3B42.83%3B-1%3B20.61%40salePrice%3BUSD%3Bsearch-mainSearch


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 10 2022 07:33:46
Very interesting concerning the 2 lnb kit. If an lnb needed replacing, is the feedhorn mount standardized or are there different types? (Would Norsats or whatever fit)

Something to consider for the future. The boss says I'm over my allowed budget and waaay behind on the honey-do list.  ::rolleyes


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 10 2022 09:14:20
The lnb mount could be considered "standard". Norsat and other similar lnb brands will fit. Those kits will not be available forever.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: Comptech on Apr 10 2022 04:39:48
ElBandito, that is why I made it very clear I run ortho feeds on both dishes with Norsat PLL LNB's!


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: Comptech on Apr 10 2022 04:53:59
Dillo,


Code:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/374002697699?hash=item57144c45e3:g:cnMAAOSwn45Zv2oL


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 10 2022 05:32:26
TY Comptech. I'll keep that 1 in mind if the Terk doesn't work out.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 15 2022 03:49:29
Voltage testing done today. I was manually holding probes so measurements varied at times.

First test on each coax BEFORE the diseqc switches and Multi-switches. (Approx 190 feet from receivers):

Rec 1) V = 13.6 - 13.8
           H = 18.5 - 18.9
Rec 2) V = 13.7
           H = 18.8
Rec 3) V = 13.8
           H = 18.8

So then I test voltage AFTER diseqc and multi-switches

West BUD V = 12.5
                 H = 17.2
East BUD V = 11.0 !!!!!!
                H = 13.25 !!!!!!!

So I replaced the NEW Diseqc switch on the East BUD with another new one:
                V = 12.48
                H = 17.56

Obviously one diseqc switch was bad.
So how does the final numbers look? Is it normal to lose about a volt going thru diseqc, jumper, and multi-switch?
The East BUD has only about 20ft more coax to reach the lnbf... BUT the West BUD has about 90ft more coax to reach the lnbf.

I'll next replace all the jumpers between the diseqc switches and the multi-switches next. They are older rg-6 and may may be copper clad steel rather than solid copper.

But not today... I'm wore out from walking up and down that darn hill all afternoon.  ::rolleyes

Edit: Forgot to add that I BRIEFLY tested for voltage feeding back thru other port on dual lnbf's. The new C238 lnbf showed Zero either direction. The old C2-pll showed Zero on one side but flickered from zero to 0.2 volts on the other side. Maybe due to cheap voltage meter. More testing to come.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 15 2022 06:44:59
Excellent Documentation!
Tests like that are exactly the way to fix it!

A multi-switch and diseqc switch together could draw around 75 milliamps from the receiver without anything else such as a lnb connected. So it is possible one of the receivers has a weak power supply, or that the cabling to one receiver is compromised. When you get low voltage reading(s), then change receivers and test again using the exact same cabling. These voltage tests will usually show any bad cabling that is in the system if you do enough testing. Time consuming I know, but this method is useful for pinpointing problems.

 A powered multi-switch will help in some cases, but it is important to remember that 10.0 - 13.9 volts should give a vertical polarity and anything above 14 volts should give horizontal polarity in consumer fta systems that use voltage to change polarities. A lot of lnbs will perform satisfactory using as little as 10.0 volts dc to drive them.

Most lnbf's, Norsat and other commercial lnbs will have voltage regulators built in. This allows them to accept voltages higher than most consumer fta receivers will produce. But you accomplish nothing except maybe adding some lnb heat when you power lnbs higher than they are set to run. For example, I have a pair of Norsat lnbs that I run vertical transponders on or around 10.8 volts and they perform fine. If I fed them 21 volts, they would still run fine, except they might be a tad bit warmer due to the voltage regulator burning off the excess voltage.



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 15 2022 07:46:36
Thanks Elbandido.
The readings are pretty consistent between all three receivers. After I replaced the faulty diseqc switch, that is.

Even the lower voltages coming out of both multi-switches is pretty close.

BUT: All my testing was done after the polarity had time to stabilize though. I'm wondering if the voltage on one receiver fluctuates for a time when changing polarities. I have a spare receiver that I can swap around and test that theory.... If I see it happening again.

I briefly changed polarity and switched between buds using all 3 receivers today and so far... no sign of glitching.

Maybe check voltage at each receiver while changing polarity back and forth?

I'm not lucky enough for the diseqc switch being the only problem. lol


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 15 2022 08:29:55
Of course, this would give polarity switching problems:
Quote
East BUD V = 11.0 !!!!!!
                H = 13.25 !!!!!!!

Since you fixed that, it might be best to wait and see if the glitching or other problem returns. Just remember, the voltage out of the multi - switch will usually increase as more receivers are added to it. Make sure other receivers are unplugged if you want to test a single receiver's voltage when more than one receiver is connected to the switch. Some receivers power the lnb when the receiver is powered down, so it is a good idea to unplug the unused receivers when doing voltage tests through a multiswitch.

Having the ability to measure the current at various points also helps. there will be times when voltage is low, the current level will be high.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 15 2022 09:05:51
Spoke to soon. Found glitching again but only under the following conditions:

If BOTH the Edison and older Chinese receivers in the den are on port 2, everything works fine. Change of polarity on both is good. Changing ports back and forth on the Edison works fine as well.

BUT.... if I change the Chinese receiver from port 2 to port 3 while the Edison is on port 2, then BOTH receivers glitch for up to a minute. Once reception stabilizes, I can change polarity on either receiver with no glitches. The Chinese receiver will switch BACK to the SAME port as the Edison without glitching as well.

So it would seem the old China box fails when switching to the port different from the Edison. I might add that it swaps ports fine as long as it is the ONLY receiver in use.

I'll swap out that old receiver and see what happens. It could be one multi-switch but I suspect the old receiver. I really think it struggles getting voltage up to correct levels.

* I haven't messed anymore with the bedroom receiver in the mix yet. One variable at a time.

Hope the above makes sense. I need sleep.  ::sleep1



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 15 2022 10:41:32
What you are describing in post#41 IS a common problem when using multiple receivers connected to a lnbf and multiswitch. Try the lnb kit from AliExpress. Problems like post #41 are why I quit using lnbf's. A pair of lnbs may also have problems, but not near as much as a dual port lnbf.

Most likely, if the receivers work correctly when no other receivers are powered, then the problem is in the dual port lnbf and not in the switches or cabling. The lnbf may check out to be good. Again, this is a problem I have had before and was the reason for switching to a pair of lnbs...


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 16 2022 08:58:48
I plan to order the lnb kit IF it remains on sale until my new debit card arrives in the mail. No way will I use my debit card that is linked to our checking account. The seller doesn't accept PayPal. Never ordered directly from China so I am a bit concerned about any Custom/Import duties that will arise.

I need at least one spare dual lnb anyway. I've been slowly stocking up on spare parts. Many satellite parts are gonna get harder and harder to find. Especially if needed in a hurry.

Further testing:
I'm ruling out the receiver's wall wart power supply and possibly overloaded universal power supply today. Not much else I can do since we have occasional showers today.

I'll probably never meet you Elbandido, but I'd proudly shake your hand for all the advice you give. That goes for many other great members as well!  ::smiley



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 16 2022 10:18:49
A powered multi-switch might help, but like using lnbs instead of a lnbf, I dunno or cannot guarantee the outcome. It is possible to get a powered switch plus lnbs and still have problems. But I have noticed a difference using lnbs instead of a dual lnbf when it comes to one receiver interfering with another.

And AliExpress does take PayPal. They accept PayPal, cards, Google Pay, wire transfers and Western Union. Ordering from AliExpress is no big deal, but the wait time on some items can be 2-4 weeks due to the inexpensive shipping that is used. I have purchased the same lnb kit from AliExpress, but without the lnbs. The parts perform very good. It is a good idea to purchase form  U.S. or North American seller when possible, but I don't know of anyone selling these parts.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 16 2022 02:54:19
I tested a different wall wart, bypassed the universal power supply, and finally switched to the spare receiver. Problem remained. So definitely elsewhere.
.........................................................................

Soooo... this is long but funny. Just my luck:

The new debit card, finally arrives. I ltry to purchase the lnb kit... and it will NOT accept the new debit card. Tried 3 times and was asked if I wanted to appeal the decision. I clicked to appeal.

Then I go to this link which I had found earlier:
Code:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32881810152.html?spm=a2g0o.order_list.0.0.24a51802BKANy3
I think it is about the same except the Input Frequency:3.4 to 4.2GHz. It has a PayPal option plus it's cheaper so I order it.

I then check back to the original order and the PayPAL option is now there for the FIRST time. So I buy it with PayPal too.

I'm thinking all is resolved and I have 2 kits ordered.... until I get the email that the original debit card purchase is still pending!
 
So I should have either 2 coming or possibly 3. lmao

I sure hope the custom duties and whatever isn't expensive.  ::rolleyes

Life ain't easy being an armadillo.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 16 2022 04:20:31
LOL
The Armadillo is buying extra parts to become a distributor or dealer?  ::smoke  ::smoke  ::smoke

I don't know if the ones you bought will come with lnbs or not. Most likely, there will be no bill from customs. I have never gotten one, and have purchased fta gear from many different places including Europe and China.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 16 2022 06:50:28
Elbandido, I messaged both sellers and asked if 2 lnbs are included. Waiting for response.
I thought lnbs were included since they show in photos and list lnb specs. Seemed like a great deal with the full kit.

A bit over priced if it is only a dual feed horn. I found dual feed horns listed cheaper. The are not scheduled to ship for 9 days, so hopefully I can cancel at least 1 if w/o lnbs.

If I have to order lnbs, would 2 of these work for what I'm trying to do?
Code:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003462902424.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.9ddc4867K9wi7e&algo_pvid=7cb2a29a-fce9-4aa1-a338-8fc08a300735&algo_exp_id=7cb2a29a-fce9-4aa1-a338-8fc08a300735-36&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000025899410270%22%7D&pdp_pi=-1%3B26.89%3B-1%3B11.8%40salePrice%3BUSD%3Bsearch-mainSearch

I have no experience with an lnb. Always had lnbf.  ::huh


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 16 2022 07:01:42
Besides AliExpress, Where is that feed cheaper??? I would like to know. Having it advertised for a certain price is one thing. Being able to actually buy it is another. Those feeds are hard to find unless something has changed recently.

As for the lnbs not being included, Welcome to the great state of China! Ads for China junk have all sorts of descriptions or insinuations. But what you get and what you think you are a getting are usually two different things. You may get lnbs with that purchase. I did not get them with mine, but I paid a cheaper price on the same site.


If you don't get lnbs, then usually some inexpensive ones are available on Ebay.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 16 2022 08:29:12
Here's one on AliExpress:
Code:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003498984622.html?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000014.10.3b817452YplcjB&gps-id=pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller&scm=1007.40050.274735.0&scm_id=1007.40050.274735.0&scm-url=1007.40050.274735.0&pvid=f64c8a4a-434c-4e60-9d2f-8fb478996f3f&_t=gps-id:pcDetailBottomMoreOtherSeller,scm-url:1007.40050.274735.0,pvid:f64c8a4a-434c-4e60-9d2f-8fb478996f3f,tpp_buckets:668%232846%238116%232002&pdp_ext_f=%257B%2522sku_id%2522%253A%252212000026066731296%2522%252C%2522sceneId%2522%253A%252230050%2522%257D&pdp_pi=-1%253B20.99%253B-1%253B-1%2540salePrice%253BUSD%253Brecommend-recommend

$41.07 including shipping. I believe that is a similar feed horn? Seeing that 1 helped me believe the 2 I ordered included more.

I'm a cheap ol' geezer who tries to save a penny whenever possible.  ::grin

It's all good.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 17 2022 09:10:44
Both sellers replied and said that 2 lnbs are included. So I'll see what actually arrives.

...

As for my 'distributorship'... Now have these extras stocked up:
3 or 4 passive multi-switches (2x4 and 4x4 mixed)
1-2x4 used powered multi-switch (untested)
1-4x8 used powered multi-switch (untested)
8 new 1x4 diseqc switches
2 used Ecoda 22k switches (which I hope to never need again)
A C/Ku lnbf that I used previously
A new Ku lnbf
A new GeoSaTpro C Band lnb (may not be a spare, plan to use as a side mount)
Several compression type F connectors
Maybe 300ft of replaced RG6 that could still work in a pinch
Think I have a used C1-PLL. Unless I trashed it. IDK

I'm slowly getting there. I hope lightning doesn't take out a bunch of my stuff again, but trying to be ready in case.

Most of the above were bought cheap and/or used. Still... I hope momma'dillo never finds out how much money all this cost.   ::wink

Still would like:.
** Another 400ft of  black 3/4" water pipe for cable runs. Must have. But man, it's hard to find or way over-priced lately!
A spare receiver or 2.
A spare VBox or similar.
Extra ground blocks.
Would love to find a bargain on another 200ft of ribbon cable. Not likely to happen again.

Who says this hobby is 'Free' To air? lol




Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 17 2022 09:51:58
You have spent nothing when compared to a very basic satellite subscription service. Entertainment has a price.  At least the headaches from trying to work through fta problems are free.



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 17 2022 10:14:04
"Free headaches" ....

Priceless! lol


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: Comptech on Apr 17 2022 10:29:32
Will be interesting to see what you get, my Norsat lnb's are a $150 bucks each x 4. But notice I have never made a post about me TV or other Weigle channels on 101W.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: Bass Player 1964 on Apr 18 2022 01:53:37
Both sellers replied and said that 2 lnbs are included. So I'll see what actually arrives.

...

As for my 'distributorship'... Now have these extras stocked up:
3 or 4 passive multi-switches (2x4 and 4x4 mixed)
1-2x4 used powered multi-switch (untested)
1-4x8 used powered multi-switch (untested)
8 new 1x4 diseqc switches
2 used Ecoda 22k switches (which I hope to never need again)
A C/Ku lnbf that I used previously
A new Ku lnbf
A new GeoSaTpro C Band lnb (may not be a spare, plan to use as a side mount)
Several compression type F connectors
Maybe 300ft of replaced RG6 that could still work in a pinch
Think I have a used C1-PLL. Unless I trashed it. IDK

I'm slowly getting there. I hope lightning doesn't take out a bunch of my stuff again, but trying to be ready in case.

Most of the above were bought cheap and/or used. Still... I hope momma'dillo never finds out how much money all this cost.   ::wink

Still would like:.
** Another 400ft of  black 3/4" water pipe for cable runs. Must have. But man, it's hard to find or way over-priced lately!
A spare receiver or 2.
A spare VBox or similar.
Extra ground blocks.
Would love to find a bargain on another 200ft of ribbon cable. Not likely to happen again.

Who says this hobby is 'Free' To air? lol




Same here! We are kinda in the sticks so I try to keep any spare part I might need for my heat and entertainment purposes. My radios and personal repeater are nice also given we have absolutely no cell service and the land line is kinda flaky actually. I have a spare modern C1 PLL as well an assortment of KU LNB's I have a new Norsat LNB and scalar assy as well as the converter needed to control the polarity servo.  I might be considered a hoarder but's it's sure nice to have the parts on hand when something calls it quits LOL


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 18 2022 07:17:29
Will be interesting to see what you get, my Norsat lnb's are a $150 bucks each x 4. But notice I have never made a post about me TV or other Weigle channels on 101W.

What he will get is a pair of lnbs and a feed for a price that is considerably less than just one of your Norsat lnbs. I have purchased cheap lnbs from AliExpress before, and they were very disappointing.  Dismal lnb performance from the AliExpress package is expected, but the real question is: Will this combination of parts fix the glitching problem? If the answer is yes, then better quality lnbs could be purchased later. If the answer is No, then not much money is lost.

I have a ten foot mesh dish in the family with a $40 buck lnbf on it. It gets me TV or other Weigle channels on 101W without issue. It is not how much you spend in fta. It is how well you match the parts you have. 40 bucks is doing the same job as your hundreds of bucks in this instance.

Norsat lnbs are not miracle makers. The good Norsats will cost around 300-350 dollars a piece. Usually replacing a lnbf with a pair of Norsat lnbs on a consumer fta satellite dish will make a very small difference in received signal for some transponders, but you may see little if any signal change on other transponders. The same though can be said for swapping lnbfs: The signal may go up on some transponders and be the same on others, or the signal may go down some.

Decent lnbs for fta use may be found for around forty dollars a piece if you look for them. This is a fraction of the cost for an iDirect, Norsat, or other commercial type lnb. Sometimes though, you will end up buying inexpensive lnbs two or three times before finding something that works satisfactory. Most fta systems are used exclusively for receiving wide transponders that are fairly strong.

Commercial satellite systems may receive the wide transponders that are fairly strong, but they may also need to receive a transponder that contains data or audio with a very narrow 200 symbol rate. This is why you see the expensive lnbs and the big heavy fiberglass dishes at radio and tv stations. First, they require a signal 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. And they may also require the reception of very narrow signals. The average fta system requires neither of these.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 18 2022 11:45:34
Will be interesting to see what you get, my Norsat lnb's are a $150 bucks each x 4. But notice I have never made a post about me TV or other Weigle channels on 101W.

What he will get is a pair of lnbs and a feed for a price that is considerably less than just one of your Norsat lnbs. I have purchased cheap lnbs from AliExpress before, and they were very disappointing.  Dismal lnb performance from the AliExpress package is expected, but the real question is: Will this combination of parts fix the glitching problem? If the answer is yes, then better quality lnbs could be purchased later. If the answer is No, then not much money is lost...

Well, I hope I get the lnbs included. Be awesome if they function ok as well. lol. I'll let y'all know.

Even if the lnbs work so so.... they can be kept for spares to use in an emergency. Better to have SOME channels than none while waiting for good replacements.  ::wink

Fixing the glitching is my immediate concern. Restarting a receiver will stop the glitching until someone swaps ports again. But that is annoying, especially for the women folk. I could live with it myself.

I expect the glitching toget more frequent as we start using more receivers.

The perfect solution would be 3 motorized buds. But I'm NOT installing a 3rd. Then the 3 of us could choose whichever sat we wished.

Who am I kidding? They'd still be after my 'private' bud ... for some reason or another. lmao
 


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 18 2022 01:21:49
Fixing the glitching is the only idea here. Dunno if these parts will solve that issue or not. I guess we will see.... ::smoke


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 19 2022 03:03:57
A new question arises. Will passive multi-switches power up the new dro lnbs? Believe I read that they require more power than an lnbf.

I still need to temporarily test both my powered switches with the current setup. Or I can leave one installed until the new lnbs arrive. Shipments due to arrive May 15th, but that is probably unrealistic.

No time for more testing for at least 2 days.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 19 2022 03:39:56
 A powered multi-switch would not hurt anything, but is not required for your current list of parts, provided the receiver is healthy.One receiver should Easily handle the power requirements for the switches and both dro lnbs that are in your system. The power requirements for one single receiver will go down every time another receiver is powered on. The arrival date for your lnb and feed kit is realistic based on my purchase experiences with AliExpress.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 25 2022 01:39:35
Both orders showed 'Clearing Customs started' 2 days ago. Showed 'Destination Country' and 'Out for delivery' yesterday. Arrival still set for May 15th and May 18th. Maybe they will arrive sooner.  ::D

Only 25 hrs from departing China to arriving at US Customs. Now that's fast! (If tracking is to be believed)

I better get some work done around here first so I will have time to play with them.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 25 2022 08:26:11
May 15th and May 18th would be the earliest dates you could complain IF you did not receive the items.

Shipping time from overseas will vary greatly. I have waited for 2-3 months for some items to arrive, and less than a week for other items to arrive.

Usually the shipping time for something from China or other places outside the United States is comparable to the time it takes for something to be shipped from the West Coast to the East Coast of the United States. It all depends on what is happening in the world at the time your item is shipped!


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 30 2022 04:11:34
Both packages arrived today. Ordered April 16th. So 2 weeks shipping time.

And both DO INCLUDE 2 lnb's!  ::grin

Below is a photo of the contents of one box. (Less bag of bolts) The second box is identical except the lnb freq range is 3.4 - 4.2. (lnb's are white) The kit with the 3.4 - 4.2 range was significantly cheaper. Items were well individually wrapped inside padded box. * The bag of bolts was open and scattered around inside the box... could have fallen out if box had been torn in shipping. But my boxes were well taped.

Thunderstorms tomorrow and a couple of days of yard work to do first. Plus more days of rain next week, so it will probably be a few days before I get around to mounting and testing.

2 questions: The rubber gasket that goes between lnb and the feed horn... should sealant be used there?
                   Some photos online show a clear tape on bottom of lnb's. Mine doesn't have that. Is that needed?



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: MikeBear on Apr 30 2022 06:32:31
Both packages arrived today. Ordered April 16th. So 2 weeks shipping time.

And both DO INCLUDE 2 lnb's!  ::grin

Below is a photo of the contents of one box. (Less bag of bolts) The second box is identical except the lnb freq range is 3.4 - 4.2. (lnb's are white) The kit with the 3.4 - 4.2 range was significantly cheaper. Items were well individually wrapped inside padded box. * The bag of bolts was open and scattered around inside the box... could have fallen out if box had been torn in shipping. But my boxes were well taped.

Thunderstorms tomorrow and a couple of days of yard work to do first. Plus more days of rain next week, so it will probably be a few days before I get around to mounting and testing.

2 questions: The rubber gasket that goes between lnb and the feed horn... should sealant be used there?
                   Some photos online show a clear tape on bottom of lnb's. Mine doesn't have that. Is that needed?



Don't use sealant on the lnb gasket. As for the "tape", are you sure it's tape, and not a mica sheet? IF tape, it's likely there to keep stuff from getting into the waveguide and bending the antenna during shipping. If mica, that used to be fairly normal on many lnb's years ago for whatever reason.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 30 2022 06:48:20
My experience with the 3.4-4.2 frequency range in your picture was not positive. I suggest starting with the brown or tan lnbs first and see how they perform.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 30 2022 08:42:07
TY for the tips.
OK - No sealant. I planned to test the 3.7 - 4.2 lnb's first anyway. I'll first swap out the old c2-pll on MY dish.

No sure about the 'tape'. Just saw something that looked like clear tape in an (different) lnb photo that said NOT to remove it. Since mine doesn't have that, I was concerned that something was missing. So, it's good as is. Cool.

There are no FD markings on the feed horn so I plan to measure and mark a .40 line around it.

I'm not sure my old nose cone will fit over this. So I may have to do some improvising there.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 30 2022 09:12:50
These lnbs could be installed on the dish and aligned properly in about 20 minutes of time at the dish. Here are some suggestions:

First, install the lnbs onto the feed in the comfort of your favorite chair. Once the lbs are properly installed on the new feed, remove ac power to every receiver connected to the dish.

Go out to the dish and make a mark on the feed showing where the correct depth is for the lnbf feed in the scalar ring. Make a mark on the old lnbf pointing North or some other direction for alignment purposes. Disconnect lnb cabling and remove lnbf.

Turn lnbf upside down and note the probe or dipole antenna positions inside the feed. Turn the lnb upside down and roughly match the probe or dipole antenna positions to that of the lnbf. Mark the lnb where it will point North (or other direction), and the inside probes will line up the same as the lnbf.

Now transfer the depth mark from the lnbf feed to the lnb feed. Install lnb. Power on receivers and check for signal. If there is no signal, do a blindscan as it is possible the polarities are reversed.

If everything was done correctly, you should have signal on at least the strongest transponders, although the polarities may be reversed. Fine tuning can be done with the signal meter app, signal meter, fta receiver, or any other method that you use.




Usually it takes me around 10-15 minutes to swap a lnb to lnbf or lnbf to lnb, providing the parts are assembled. Tuning time is usually 5 minutes or less, but sometimes it takes longer.



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Apr 30 2022 10:29:09
These lnbs could be installed on the dish and aligned properly in about 20 minutes of time at the dish. Here are some suggestions:

First, install the lnbs onto the feed in the comfort of your favorite chair. Once the lbs are properly installed on the new feed, remove ac power to every receiver connected to the dish.

Go out to the dish and make a mark on the feed showing where the correct depth is for the lnbf feed in the scalar ring. Make a mark on the old lnbf pointing North or some other direction for alignment purposes. Disconnect lnb cabling and remove lnbf.

Turn lnbf upside down and note the probe or dipole antenna positions inside the feed. Turn the lnb upside down and roughly match the probe or dipole antenna positions to that of the lnbf. Mark the lnb where it will point North (or other direction), and the inside probes will line up the same as the lnbf.

Now transfer the depth mark from the lnbf feed to the lnb feed. Install lnb. Power on receivers and check for signal. If there is no signal, do a blindscan as it is possible the polarities are reversed.

If everything was done correctly, you should have signal on at least the strongest transponders, although the polarities may be reversed. Fine tuning can be done with the signal meter app, signal meter, fta receiver, or any other method that you use.




Usually it takes me around 10-15 minutes to swap a lnb to lnbf or lnbf to lnb, providing the parts are assembled. Tuning time is usually 5 minutes or less, but sometimes it takes longer.



Good info Elbandido, thanks.

I'll probably cut a scribe stick to mark the FD line around the new feed horn. Use that quite often in woodwork.

I like to motor my western dish to 133W. Then I make a straight mark on both the old feed horn and scaler ring. (Somewhere on the bottom) Then mark the new feed horn in the same orientation and line up my marks. That way all work can be done safely at 133W. The initial lnbf install was a PITA when the dish was at the apex. Both dishes are on a hill, so at true south, it's easy to fall into the dish.

And for the wife's eastern dish, everything is done at 40W.

Getting the step ladder level and stable on the hillside is half the battle. Especially with all the darn mole burrows.  ::angry


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Apr 30 2022 11:02:07
I do similar when changing parts. The dish will be rolled over in the 130 degree west range where the parts will be installed. But the fine tuning needs to be done at the center of the arc whenever possible in order to get the best results across the entire arc. Tuning on one end of the arc for me usually gives the strongest signal at that end, but signals usually suffer at other places on the arc.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 01 2022 01:59:11
Since thunderstorms were not predicted until after 2pm, I decided to install the new feed horn/lnb's after all.  Now I can play with it on the rainy days.  ::grin

Naturally I had it 95 degrees out of phase .. so I had to correct that first. And wham... I got channels!

Now the bad news: It did NOT correct my glitching problem.

Good news: The feed horn/lnb's seem to work fine. So far I have only quickly checked transponders on 133W and 101W. Signals MAY be slightly lower than the old C2-PLL. Hard to say since I didn't keep a record of signal strength before starting. I peaked signals on 101W, couldn't reach the feed horn any closer to due south. (80 degrees) Too much danger of falling.

All channels on 101W lock in without fail. Be interesting to see if I get any rain fade later. I checked the NASA uhd channel on 127W and it was very crisp. As good or better than previously. If all my channels lock fine... I don't really care what the meter says anyway.  ::wink

I'll be checking other sats as I get time. It won't be too scientific, just a general feel of performance.

* The nosecone had to be forced on with pressure exerting on one of the lnb's and would not quite fasten on one side. This may cause the feed horn to cock sideways over time. I plan to put a heat gun on the nose cone and try to stretch it out a bit where needed. 3/4" bulge would prob be enough. Work for a later date.

Future plan of attack: Temporarily replace the 238 lnbf on the eastern dish with the old C2PLL. See if that cures the glitching problem. Then I will install the new dual feed horn that came with the 3.4 - 4.2 lnb's. They need testing anyway.

And if that fails... guess trying the powered multi-switch will be next.

Hey...it beats weed eating and home chores!  ::grin

 EDIT: After further testing, some signal levels are definitely lower than previously. Some transponders are borderline. It requires precise pointing to receive some now. Hopefully it is from forcing the nosecone on as reported above. (re-scanning some problematic transponders has helped. Obviously the new lnbs are slightly different freq than the old lnbf) More peaking to come.

Still... I'm impressed the lnb's work as well as they do considering the price. They will do for spares if nothing else.  ::grin


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 02 2022 08:05:44
How is your system setup now? Is this dish connected to another dish? Do you have any other switches installed on this dish besides the multi-switch? Do you have a name or identification number for this dish?


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 02 2022 11:57:44
10' Unimesh (perforated) dish used for 40W - 101W approx. - New Titanium 238 dual lnbf. (soon to replace with old C2-PLL for testing)
10' Channel Master Mesh dish used for 91W - 133W approx. - The new dual lnb feed horn in testing phase.

Each dish has a passive 2x4 multi-switch. (Found that using ONE passive 4x8 multi-switch was even more glitchy)

PanSat 1x4 Diseqc switches on each receiver coax connects to the multi-switches. (Soon to be 4 receiver setup)

Ground blocks at house.

Then coax direct to each receiver. Diseqc positioners in standalone mode.

Just to clarify previously posted:
The only time it seems to glitch is when 2 (or 3) receivers are ALL working on the western dish and a receiver is switched to the eastern dish. Receiver on Eastern dish will not lock a channel. Often shows NO signal. Like it can't decide where to switch. It will usually correct itself after 2 or 3 minutes. This causes the receiver(s) still on the western bud to refuse to lock as well. All receiver signals blink in and out. Annoying as heck.

Simply restarting the receiver on the eastern bud will immediately correct ALL receivers. At this point: All receivers can change channels, polarity, and sats without issue.

Receiver on eastern dish can then be switched back to the western dish without issue. REPEAT: It only happens when switching a receiver from the western bud to the eastern bud when another receiver remains on the western bud.

I have swapped multi-switches and diseqc switches between the two dishes to see if it could be replicated when switching to the western bud. It never changes.

Seems a long shot: The scalar ring on the eastern dish is cut out on one side to allow a piggybacked lnb. (not on presently) As in Photo below. Could that cut scalar ring be causing the problem?





Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 02 2022 12:06:04
For the sake of clarity, let's call or name the two dishes Channel Master and Unimesh, so we know which ones we are referring to.

As a Test,
Break these two dishes up. Remove the diseqc switches and install barrel connectors in their place. Do this on the Channel Master dish and see if the glitching stops when all receivers are connected to it.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 02 2022 02:12:40
Think I found why it doesn't always glitch. Maybe pertinent?

With receivers all receiving from the channel master dish:
 
If I switch a receiver over to the Unimesh.... it only glitches if the polarity is changed!
For instance: channel master Vertical ---- to ---- unimesh vertical. Change is ok
                    channel master Horizontal ---- to----  unimesh vertical. Change is bad. Glitches all receivers.

It MAY switch between dishes ok.... but goes crazy if polarity change is also needed.

I hope to mount the other new feed horn (with the 3.4 - 4.2 lnbs) onto the Unimesh dish today. Mainly just to see how well they function. Be nice if it fixes the glitching, but not expected.

IF I get that done, gonna rest. Feel bad and rain due tomorrow.

Elbandido, I'll try your latest test when the weather permits. Thanks!



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 02 2022 02:55:34
Have you got one or two multi-switches in this dish system. Does the Channel Master and Unimesh each have a multi-switch?


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 02 2022 06:29:44
TWO multi-switches. One on each dish. Using just ONE 4x6 multi-switch previously gave worse results.

I found out what that extra hole in the scalar ring is good for! Pulled off the nosecone and a large bird nest and 5 eggs fell out.  ::sad Nosecone was about half full of nest material.

The problem precedes the birds by a couple years. So I can't blame the birds.

On a positive note: This dual feed horn with the 3.4 - 4.2 lnbs is working good so far. Still early in testing though. I found the nose cone CAN fit if outside lnb is turned 180 degrees. Lnb couldn't be turned 180 degrees on the first feed horn due to bolts sticking up too high. (Second feed horn had enough clearance) Grinding the bolt heads down thinner should solve that problem. Work for another day. I think it looks nicer with proper nosecones.  ::grin

I got to step away from this problem for a day or two. Giving me a headache messing with it.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 03 2022 08:28:00
It appears that I have found a working solution at last!  ::grin  ::grin  ::grin

I pulled out both multi-switches and the three 4x1 diseqc switches. Re-installed the passive Zinwell 6x8 (DTV) multi-switch. The EXACT SAME one that would NOT work correctly with the C2-Pll and C238 lnbf's before. Even used the first 3 inputs as before. So far I can't make it glitch to save my life, and I've tried all afternoon with 3 receivers in-line.

The only difference then and now is the dual feed horns on both dishes. So I figure the dual feed horns have to be the cure. Thanks for the tip, Elbandido!

I guess the reason why nothing worked while using multi-switches and diseqc switches will have to remain a mystery. I swapped out enough switches to rule out any being bad. And I never found anything wrong using my multimeter. (Maybe I missed voltage testing something, IDK) I'm about sick of messing with it. And I'm sure y'all are sick of trying to help me.  ::wink

I have another Zinwell multi-switch for a spare if needed.

Plus 2 or 3 of the smaller 4x6 multi-switches that might(?) work with the dual feed horns. I'm not about to test them as long as my system is working.

Any future problems and I will probably try the powered 4x8 multi-switch.

Thunderstorms moving in again so I'm gonna close.

Thanks again folks for all the help! I was running out of hair to pull out. lol



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 03 2022 09:09:35
Interesting....

Let's see if it stays fixed. if it does, you can upgrade to some better performing lnbs later (if needed).


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 05 2022 04:29:30
Bit of a set back found today. Didn't notice it when checking channels before. Getting bad breakups and pixellating on several 116W transponders. To a lesser extent on 113W and 121W also. I have yet to see any other sats with the same problem.

Part of the problem may be due to trees reducing some of the signal. (Plan to cut/trim them this summer)

After much help from Titanium and others, I solved the past problem when I switched to WiMax blocking lnbfs. Must be a tower or something at the neighbors house causing the interference. I had about forgotten about the mess I had after installing my first BUD a few years ago.

The RetroTV mux on 113W seems watchable so far, which is all I'm interested in from 113W - 121W. BUT Willax and PanAmerican on 116W, 2 of the wife's favorite channels, are getting hammered.

So either she learns to live w/o those 2 channels, or 2 new WiMax blocking lnbs are going to be needed. Maybe I'll just tell her they stopped broadcasting.lol. ::evil

Still not having any of the glitching problem when switching between dish!  ::grin

EDIT: Went back to 116W. Channels good for 15 or 20 minutes, then back to breaking up again. Same results of a few year ago. Something must power up and down to cause the random interference.

And now PanAmerican is crystal clear while typing this. Something knocks an S 83% / Q 72% plumb down to zero at times. (Tree limbs not blowing either)

Go figure.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 05 2022 06:58:34
This is encouraging!

The 116w problem may be simple to fix. The lnb may need to be moved slightly up or down in the holder, and/or the skew may need a slight adjustment. Personally I am not a fan of a wimax or any other type of filter until it is proven that such a filter is needed. LNB's operate over a wide range of frequencies, which explains why some lnbs seem to work better than others on a given transponder. The lnbs you are using are at the bottom of the barrel price wise, so see if a small adjustment can be made to get them working where you need them to work before investing money in filters, new lnbs, or other parts.

I have no idea what S 83% / Q 72% really means and I doubt anyone else does either. I think you have an Edision MIO receiver, and if so, check the signal using the snr in db. While the snr in db is not perfect either, it is better than nothing, and gives an idea how far above the noise floor you really are. The transponders that are giving the problems should be posted so they can be checked in other systems. Enigma2 receivers also have a talking signal meter app that does a good job if the receiver is connected to a network that can be received at the dish. The signal meter app allows adjustments to be made at the dish without disconnecting any cables. This is easier than installing a signal meter in most instances.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 05 2022 09:07:38
Yeah, I'll play with it more after these incoming thunderstorms clear out. I fiddled with the skew a bit today, but never played with the FD. I turned each direction until I was losing transponders across the arc.

My WiFI starts dropping signal as I near the dish. Making it complicated to use my signal meter app. I need to relocate the router temporarily before I try again. (Roof blocks signal)

I'm in no hurry to buy more lnbs.  ::wink


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 05 2022 09:58:39
TNAP enigma2 images automatically generate blindscan or scan reports. Here is a snippet of a blindscan report of 117w tonight:

< 'DVB-S2 8PSK 3963H / 2400 / 3/4' > Tp# 26
< (71)PANAMERICANA HD />  1:0:1:1:1:FFFF:97D0F7B:0:0:0:
< (72)OneSeg />  1:0:1:2:1:FFFF:97D0F7B:0:0:0:


< 'DVB-S2 8PSK 3969H / 2560 / 5/6' > Tp# 29
< (76)WILLAX />  1:0:1:101:1:1:97D0F81:0:0:0:
< (77)TV-102 />  1:0:1:102:1:1:97D0F81:0:0:0:
< (78)TV-201 />  1:0:1:201:1:1:97D0F81:0:0:0:
< (79)TV-202 />  1:0:1:202:1:1:97D0F81:0:0:0:

Here are the approximate signal levels (snr in db) that are needed to open DVB-S2 8psk transponders:
DVB-S2   8PSK   
3/5   5.5
2/3   6.6
3/4   7.9
5/6   9.4
8/9   10.6
9/10 11

With almost every fta receiver, it is ALL or Nothing: Either the signal is strong enough to lock or open or it isn't.

For the sake of discussion, let's say a given fta receiver reads 100 percent quality for a 15 db(snr) signal, and 50 percent quality for a 7.5 db signal. We could assume this receiver would have a Q signal reading of seventy something if the signal was around 10db.  So if we were watching a channel on a transponder that almost required a 10db signal, and our imagined fta receiver was reading around 70 percent quality, then we could expect a choppy signal at times, and a clear signal at other times. We would also expect to see the Q signal drop from 70 something to 0 when the signal chopped or was birefly lost.

For c band satellite, it is a good idea to have a signal at least 2-3 db higher than what is needed to open it. When you are watching a channel on a transponder that has a borderline signal, then you can expect all sorts of strange things to happen, and this includes signal meter readings. Usually a fta receiver  cannot receive a 2 or 3 db signal unless it can lock or open that signal. This is why you will see fta receivers dropping from what appears to be a good strong signal to nothing in an instant. Everything from 5G to wifi gets the blame when a fta system is operating at or near the signal opening threshold!

So for me in dish tuning, it helps to know how much signal I need for the transponders I want to open, and compare it to what I actually have. A fta receiver with a decent working db meter really helps in this area. If you think you are getting interference from 5G or wifi, Confirm it before buying parts to fix it.  There are devices available that can show if the interference is 5G or wifi. Lots of times, a poor or marginal signal is mistaken for interference, and money is then spent to correct a problem that does not exist.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 05 2022 11:28:22
Elbandido, Hope these are the numbers you need? Readings from the Signal Finder program on OpenVix. I don't know how to generate a blindscan report. These are just the 2 transponders of most concern.

Willax @ 3969/H/2560
SNR 11.3dB
AGC  80%
BER 0
77
80
0

Panamericana @ 3963/H/2400
SNR 10.6dB
AGC 75%
BER 0
73
75
0

Above readings taking when no problem with reception. Solid locks.

When it is messing up... signal jumps back and forth as low as ZERO. Similar to the way some data signals bounce up and down.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 06 2022 06:12:46
You are above the lock threshold by about 2db for each transponder. See if the signal creeps down a bit in the daytime.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 06 2022 01:06:29
Signal dropped to 10dB on Willax ; 10.2dB on Panamericana all this morning Both still locking without problems.
Misting rain and total cloud may account for that.

If I recall correctly, the problem usually started around mid-afternoon if it started at all. Will keep monitoring signals when possible. Heavy storms still due to come in 1.5 hrs.

Going back to basics weather/time permitting.1) Verify Channel Master is still peaked. 2) Make sure buttonhook is still centered. (turnbuckles may need re-adjusting) Always problematic. 3) Play with skew and FD more.

Maybe I can find enough missing signal to help compensate for the low quality lnbs. Goal is just to find a working solution with what I have if possible.

I have an old Satron model 5000 lnb that came with one of my dishes. It needs testing later. May be better... or total trash. IDK. If no good, tired of it laying around.  ::rolleyes




Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 08 2022 04:12:30
Put the old SatRon lnb on the Vert side of the Channel Master feed horn. (Tested with cheap old receiver, so no readings in db). S units dropped from 91 to 71. ZERO Q. (Horz still normal using the Chinese lnb) So I assume the SatRon is junkyard bound. Gonna look inside for anything obvious but that's about it.

Re-installed Chinese lnb. Parked dish on 116W, Willax channel. I know the 'correct' way is at the apex. Just looking for a fast improvement for Willax and Panamericana channels.

Tried peaking skew and FD... no improvement.
Pushing dish down gave at most a .1 dbB gain. Pushing dish up lost .1dB. So pretty well peaked still for 116W.

Going to put a couple of line amps back on next. Not expecting much, but what the heck.

Chainsaw mediation may help for 113W - 121W. But better lnbs probably needed for all Sats.




Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 08 2022 04:18:20
Most lnbs already have a line amp of at least 50db. So adding an additional line amp will do nothing except raise the noise floor unless you have several hundred feet of coax installed between the lnb and receiver.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 08 2022 05:33:48
Most lnbs already have a line amp of at least 50db. So adding an additional line amp will do nothing except raise the noise floor unless you have several hundred feet of coax installed between the lnb and receiver.

Yup, the results were horrible. 20db sloped amps overloaded signal strength at the receivers. Most Transponders at 100% or more and refusing to lock. (db unchanged)

The only time the amps ever helped me was early on when I had some very poor quality/lossy coax. And wasn't much benefit then.

Wasn't expecting much... but only took a few minutes to add them and remove them. Just something else that will probably never be used again. Got three.... will let go cheap. lol


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 08 2022 08:49:46
If you are not having any other problems besides reception, then you may try swapping the lnbs and feeds from one dish to the other. I had very poor results with the white lnbs that are similar or the same as what you purchased.

The only other option to swapping parts would be to spend money. I would suggest buying One decent lnb and see if it helps on 117w as both of your channels are on horizontal transponder. Here are a couple of suggestions:

Code:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/251102605675?hash=item3a76e1b16b:g:aO4AAOSwxUJdvxG7

Code:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/203125271502?hash=item2f4b35abce:g:2AQAAOSws9dfdt4P

The Norsat lnb seller accepts returns. The Gardiner lnb seller does not. The Norsat 8225RF is a decent example of a good, fta satellite dro lnb.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 08 2022 10:29:06
Elbandido, I'll try swapping lnbs just to be sure, but the white lnbs are not the ones having the problem.

Other than that, I'll let the wife decide if those 2 channels are worth the money to her.  I'm happy with MY channels so far.

Thanks for the links. I had already looked at the Gardiner lnb but wondered if they were any good.

Anyone have an opinion about this lnb?

Code:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003200869907.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.a2724867QHMUPQ&algo_pvid=9061fed1-ca44-4c28-b546-fefd754c9621&algo_exp_id=9061fed1-ca44-4c28-b546-fefd754c9621-3&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000024631868276%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21%2145.99%21%21%2120.08%21%21%400b0a557216520661134706686ea127%2112000024631868276%21sea


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 08 2022 11:16:03
Gardiner is "supposed" to be good. Never ran one or the Satmaximum piece. You might contact Satmaximum and see what they say. An U.S. number is on their webpage.

Code:
https://satmaximum.com/

The Norsat would be the safe bet. Should be able to return it if you don't like it. Just be careful with the scratches. Only put a screw or two in to test it.

As for over all signal and In General,
LNB'S seem to work a bit better or at times a lot better than lnbf's.  But either one will usually do the job of watching video on satellite tv. A decent lnb is better constructed than a lnbf and is why the difference in money is so great. Disassemble a decent lnb and any lnbf. You will notice a difference in parts and in materials. This of course would not apply to the cheap made lnb that cost a few dollars.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 12 2022 05:14:23
Would my passive multi-switch be able to power up PLL lnb's?

Norsat 8225RF DRO current drain = 130 mA
Norsat 5250R PLL current drain = 250 mA  ::shocked

The PLL looks better on paper.... But I prefer not going to a powered multi-switch.

My system is still switching flawlessly. Now the wife definitely wants a kitchen tv added as well. It could soon be peace in armadillo land. lol





Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 12 2022 05:49:30
PLL or Phase Locked Loop became popular in the seventies when it was introduced into consumer radios. The technology helped to lock a weak, noisy signal and allow it to be more usable. PLL technology is pretty much useless on satellite channels that are video.

DRO lnbs generate less noise and in return require less electrical circuits than a comparable PLL lnb. A good DRO lnb should work well for you unless you are wanting to lock very small symbol rate transponders that are data or radio. Performance of a PLL lnb may be seen on a weak, narrow signal, but a satellite video channel is wide, else it would not be video, and is usually not weak as compared to some of the data transponders.

The power requirements of the lnbs are rated maximums, and are usually less when in operation. The average fta receiver can usually produce around 450 milliamps easily for the lnb(s). Subtract 50 milliamps for the switches and you still have 400 milliamps left to power lnbs. The 8225RF will power easily without a powered switch, and is the model I would suggest for your system. The 5250R could probably be powered with one receiver, but it would be pushing it. A multiswitch powers both lnbs, similar to a 22KHz tone switch. So you have to multiply the power requirement for a single lnb by 2.

When more receivers are powered on in a multiswitch, the less power that is required for each receiver. There should be little if any advantage for you having a powered multiswitch in the system unless you just want one. My c band dish has a pair of Norsats, and my 2.4 meter ku band dish has a pair of iDirect lnbs. Neither multiswitch for these two dishes is powered.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 12 2022 06:29:18
Ah, I was misinformed. I thought a PLL was the 'best' and the wave of the future so to speak; While a DRO was kind of antiquated. Thanks for the info, Elbandido.

I don't care to lock data or even radio. I don't like searching for feeds either.

A passive multi-switch is much simpler in my opinion. Plus I have spares if needed.  ::D






Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 14 2022 11:16:09
Well I ordered the 8225RF DRO May 13th. Didn't see the "Before placing order, please contact us for availability." But the listing says they have more than 10 available.
I got an email today that says that model is discontinued and asks will I accept a 5250RF PLL.

The listing:

New Norsat 8225RF, C-Band DRO LNB 3.7 - 4.2 GHz 250 kHz Stability F Type 75 Ohm

...

*****The listing is for customer who are still looking for 8225RF****
******Before placing order, please contact us for availability*******

*****8225RF is discontinued and replaced by new model 5250RF*****
*****5250RF is PLL LNB and works more stably and accurately*****

Anyway, I replied that I need a 8225RF due to lower power consumption. We'll see how they respond. Just my luck.lol.





Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 15 2022 09:16:41
Ebay seller esatcominc is a lnb dealer. IMO, get the 5250RF if that is the only model available in that price range. You can always return it as long as it is not damaged.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 16 2022 02:30:58
Esatcominc responded. The only DRO in stock is the 8525R. I didn't like the LO stability of +/-500 kHz so I canceled the order for now. Esatcominc was very helpful with info to help me decide what was best for me. I will probably buy a 5250RF or better PLL from them in the future once I get everything else sorted out.

For now purchased and installed:
1) NOS Norsat 8000 DRO Digital C Band. 3-7 - 4.2
LO Stability 500 : Temp 35K : Gain 60
Installed on Channel Master dish, Horizontal side

2) NOS California Amplifier. Slimline II. C31012-SL  HEMT LNB 3-7 - 4.2   
35 degree : Gain 62 (Assume a DRO?)
Installed on Channel Master dish, Vertical side

Both H and V signals improved compared to the Chinese lnb's. BUT only slight improvements on 113W, 116W. Still some dropouts on Panamericana channel, but seems to be better than before.

Going to do some tree and limb removal before considering some more expensive lnb's.  ::grin


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 16 2022 07:40:34
I doubt the Panamericana channel issue is fixed with lnbs because you have had different lnbs on this transponder and the problem still exists.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 16 2022 08:12:57
I doubt the Panamericana channel issue is fixed with lnbs because you have had different lnbs on this transponder and the problem still exists.

Agreed. Panamericana still glitches slightly more than it was originally doing with the C2-PLL lnbf. Willax seems to be solid now with the Norsat 8000. A big sawdust pile is probably the only permanent cure.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 22 2022 08:39:22
Evidently the horizontal lnb has died on the wife's dish. (The 3.4-4.2 type) No signal strength. Vertical lnb is still working fine. Possibly from lightning while we were out of town, but more likely it just failed. Not sure when I can replace it with 2 days of rain in the forecast.

Just my luck... the wife's MAIN channel on 55W is Latina.... which is horizontal!

With Panamericana still glitchy, and Latina now gone.... I may runaway from home a few days. lol


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 22 2022 08:43:38
Rotate the feed and make vertical horizontal.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 23 2022 10:30:46
Rotate the feed and make vertical horizontal.

Or I could go out there to replace the lnb and discover that the half-baked installer forgot to tighten the coax connector.  ::embarrassed  ::rolleyes

Working fine now and a lot more tranquility in the household.  ::grin



Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: MikeBear on May 24 2022 07:02:55
Rotate the feed and make vertical horizontal.

Or I could go out there to replace the lnb and discover that the half-baked installer forgot to tighten the coax connector.  ::embarrassed  ::rolleyes

Working fine now and a lot more tranquility in the household.  ::grin



Lol, you aren't supposed to drink until AFTER it's all installed and locked down.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 24 2022 10:07:42
Some days I could use a drink just to get started, MikeBear. lol

The loose coax wasn't the problem after all. It ran for a while then died again. Then was working this morning. Heat related I guess.

Anyway, replaced it with one of the (brown) 3.7 - 4.2 lnb's. Seems ok so far. Some signal improvement; mostly due to replacing the cut-out scaler ring with a 'full' one.

But where will the bluebirds nest now?  ::huh


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on May 25 2022 09:59:45
A scaler ring is very important for the size of c bande satellite dishes we use. The scaler can "make or "break" a signal --especially weak or marginal ones. The scaler rings that are shipped with lnbfs are usually cheaply made, and are also cut for a different band range. Shown in the attached pictures are a brown scaler ring that was shipped with a lnbf and an older ADL scalar ring that was installed years ago.

The brown or tan lnbf scaler ring that is shown appears to be cut for 6-8 Gigahertz range instead of the 3-4 Gigahertz range that we use for satellite tv reception. The reason for this is to cut costs: The brown lnbf scaler is not as wide, and has less spacing between the rings. How much signal is lost between these two scaler rings is debatable.

For best signal results, use a scaler like the larger grey or blue ADL piece that is shown in the attached pictures whenever possible. A decent scaler will usually add stability to a mesh type dish, and also add stability to the lnbs and feed that are installed in it. You may also see an increase in signal by installing a properly built scaler ring.

Cutting a scaler is never a good idea, but it is a hobby, and we all do things in hobbies that are not good ideas.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on May 26 2022 10:28:02
A scaler ring is very important for the size of c bande satellite dishes we use. The scaler can "make or "break" a signal --especially weak or marginal ones. The scaler rings that are shipped with lnbfs are usually cheaply made, and are also cut for a different band range. Shown in the attached pictures are a brown scaler ring that was shipped with a lnbf and an older ADL scalar ring that was installed years ago.

The brown or tan lnbf scaler ring that is shown appears to be cut for 6-8 Gigahertz range instead of the 3-4 Gigahertz range that we use for satellite tv reception. The reason for this is to cut costs: The brown lnbf scaler is not as wide, and has less spacing between the rings. How much signal is lost between these two scaler rings is debatable.

For best signal results, use a scaler like the larger grey or blue ADL piece that is shown in the attached pictures whenever possible. A decent scaler will usually add stability to a mesh type dish, and also add stability to the lnbs and feed that are installed in it. You may also see an increase in signal by installing a properly built scaler ring.

Cutting a scaler is never a good idea, but it is a hobby, and we all do things in hobbies that are not good ideas.


Hmmm... I might have a larger size scaler ring laying around. I'll have to check the old parts I have. When I first set up my buds, I used the scaler ring that came with the lnbf... all small.

I don't like how some of the new scaler rings only have ONE set screw to hold the feed horn. Doesn't seem as stable to me.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Jun 02 2022 06:38:29
Here's pics showing what I'm fighting to hopefully get better reception, especially on 117W. I'm not sure it is blocking signal yet... but it's getting close.

Pic one shows the trees needing to be cut behind the dead pine snag and on the left (upper) side. The tall pine on the left needs cutting before it falls on the house.  ::shocked

Pic 2 just shows more of the right hand (lower) side. Lots more work before I can even get to the taller trees. Don't want to drop trees onto a Bramble and Mt Laurel H_ll as they call it up here.

Overgrown all the way to the driveway when I began. Working my way back. Mostly Mountain Laurel and Poplar sapling with blackberry vines all mixed in. I'm using the weed eater brush attachment to whack out the small stuff and brambles. Then pulling out what I can with the truck and chains. What is too big to yank gets the chainsaw treatment.

Want it stripped clean. Then plant dwarf peach, apple, and cherry trees this fall. Maybe some grapes.

Anyone want to join the party? lol


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Jun 02 2022 10:47:00
On something like that, I would cut the one that I think is the problem (if possible) while the dish is aimed at the satellite/transponder that is weak. Check the signal before and after the cut.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: joeroscoe1957 on Jun 03 2022 09:09:49
Is that downed power lines running through those pictures ?


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Jun 03 2022 10:58:11
Is that downed power lines running through those pictures ?

No, Joe. That's my satellite cables in poly water pipe running to the dishes. Also some ribbon cable that hasn't been connected yet and a warm weather water line. Everything to eventually be covered with landscape fabric and mulch.


On something like that, I would cut the one that I think is the problem (if possible) while the dish is aimed at the satellite/transponder that is weak. Check the signal before and after the cut.


I will Elbandito. There are at least 5 larger trees that need to come down regardless. Just working my way toward it. I've found brambles over 15ft long woven all around this mess. Wish I had cleared it off 2 or 3 years ago!  ::rolleyes


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Jun 06 2022 07:58:59
Large trees down. Still a ton of brush to cut up and burn.

Before: Panamericana  SNR 10.6dB  AGC 75%  BER 0  73  70  0
After:   Panamericana  SNR 11.2dB  AGC 69%  BER 0  76  69  0

So at most, a minor improvement. Signal still glitching on the Chinese receiver, but less than before. Solid lock on the Edison OS Mio SO FAR. Before and after readings done on different days... so the difference in signal readings could be due to daily fluctuations.

I believe the largest tress were just beginning to interfere. Maybe I will have better luck fine tuning the dish whenever I get around to it. Nice not having to worry about the large pine falling on our house, or the large Black Oak falling on the neighbors any more.  ::grin


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Jun 07 2022 10:33:50
Have you tried turning the lnbs 180 degrees?


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Jun 07 2022 02:00:36
Have you tried turning the lnbs 180 degrees?

No, haven't tried that. Could that make a difference? Everything would need re-scanning, right?


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Jun 07 2022 06:02:08
Turning the lnb 90 degrees reverses the polarities.
Turning the lnb 180 degrees will not reverse the polarities, so no rescan is needed.

Try turning the lnb 180 degrees and see what happens. Sometimes the signal will get a bit stronger after doing this adjustment. You can always put it back if it does not help. 180 Degrees is half a circle.


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Jul 25 2022 11:10:14
Updated photo. Slash and burn done on the side lot. Had 2 huge burns. Slowly dragging of the logs to use around the flower beds. Still lots of roots and stumps to pull or dig up. New growth already starting back while the Covid has me laid up. Grrrr. Gonna need plenty of Brush Killer to kill this mess off for good. I enjoy the work... when I feel like doing it.




Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: armadillo_115 on Aug 03 2022 10:07:39
Bought a new Norsat 8115 dro lnb for $70. (wanted a spare anyway) Panamericana is working much better now. Still an occasional brief glitch now and then on ONE receiver. Other receivers seem to lock it solid. May just be some fault with the ONE receiver now, IDK.

Still plan to try rotating the feedhorn 180 degrees as Elbandido suggested when I get the chance. Heck... I forgot to check the size of the scaler ring again.  ::rolleyes Think it is already the larger size though.

Anyway... the boss is satisfied enough that it can wait till another day. Too much other things to get done!


Title: Re: Multi-Switch Question
Post by: elbandido on Aug 04 2022 07:44:08
As a test, Swap the ONE receiver with another receiver that works correctly. Doing this will tell you if there is a cabling problem with the ONE receiver.

Rotating the lnb 180 degrees may/may not improve the signal. It is worth trying as I have done this before with weak signals and had success.