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Author Topic: Multi-Switch Question  (Read 5305 times)
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armadillo_115
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« Reply #75 on: May 02 2022 06:29:44 »

TWO multi-switches. One on each dish. Using just ONE 4x6 multi-switch previously gave worse results.

I found out what that extra hole in the scalar ring is good for! Pulled off the nosecone and a large bird nest and 5 eggs fell out.  sad Nosecone was about half full of nest material.

The problem precedes the birds by a couple years. So I can't blame the birds.

On a positive note: This dual feed horn with the 3.4 - 4.2 lnbs is working good so far. Still early in testing though. I found the nose cone CAN fit if outside lnb is turned 180 degrees. Lnb couldn't be turned 180 degrees on the first feed horn due to bolts sticking up too high. (Second feed horn had enough clearance) Grinding the bolt heads down thinner should solve that problem. Work for another day. I think it looks nicer with proper nosecones.  grin

I got to step away from this problem for a day or two. Giving me a headache messing with it.
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If a frog had wings,he wouldn't bump his butt when he tried to fly.
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armadillo_115
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« Reply #76 on: May 03 2022 08:28:00 »

It appears that I have found a working solution at last!  grin  grin  grin

I pulled out both multi-switches and the three 4x1 diseqc switches. Re-installed the passive Zinwell 6x8 (DTV) multi-switch. The EXACT SAME one that would NOT work correctly with the C2-Pll and C238 lnbf's before. Even used the first 3 inputs as before. So far I can't make it glitch to save my life, and I've tried all afternoon with 3 receivers in-line.

The only difference then and now is the dual feed horns on both dishes. So I figure the dual feed horns have to be the cure. Thanks for the tip, Elbandido!

I guess the reason why nothing worked while using multi-switches and diseqc switches will have to remain a mystery. I swapped out enough switches to rule out any being bad. And I never found anything wrong using my multimeter. (Maybe I missed voltage testing something, IDK) I'm about sick of messing with it. And I'm sure y'all are sick of trying to help me.  wink

I have another Zinwell multi-switch for a spare if needed.

Plus 2 or 3 of the smaller 4x6 multi-switches that might(?) work with the dual feed horns. I'm not about to test them as long as my system is working.

Any future problems and I will probably try the powered 4x8 multi-switch.

Thunderstorms moving in again so I'm gonna close.

Thanks again folks for all the help! I was running out of hair to pull out. lol

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If a frog had wings,he wouldn't bump his butt when he tried to fly.
I wouldn't shoot a rat that was trying to get out of the city!
elbandido
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« Reply #77 on: May 03 2022 09:09:35 »

Interesting....

Let's see if it stays fixed. if it does, you can upgrade to some better performing lnbs later (if needed).
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armadillo_115
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« Reply #78 on: May 05 2022 04:29:30 »

Bit of a set back found today. Didn't notice it when checking channels before. Getting bad breakups and pixellating on several 116W transponders. To a lesser extent on 113W and 121W also. I have yet to see any other sats with the same problem.

Part of the problem may be due to trees reducing some of the signal. (Plan to cut/trim them this summer)

After much help from Titanium and others, I solved the past problem when I switched to WiMax blocking lnbfs. Must be a tower or something at the neighbors house causing the interference. I had about forgotten about the mess I had after installing my first BUD a few years ago.

The RetroTV mux on 113W seems watchable so far, which is all I'm interested in from 113W - 121W. BUT Willax and PanAmerican on 116W, 2 of the wife's favorite channels, are getting hammered.

So either she learns to live w/o those 2 channels, or 2 new WiMax blocking lnbs are going to be needed. Maybe I'll just tell her they stopped broadcasting.lol. evil

Still not having any of the glitching problem when switching between dish!  grin

EDIT: Went back to 116W. Channels good for 15 or 20 minutes, then back to breaking up again. Same results of a few year ago. Something must power up and down to cause the random interference.

And now PanAmerican is crystal clear while typing this. Something knocks an S 83% / Q 72% plumb down to zero at times. (Tree limbs not blowing either)

Go figure.
« Last Edit: May 05 2022 06:05:33 by armadillo_115 » Logged

If a frog had wings,he wouldn't bump his butt when he tried to fly.
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elbandido
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« Reply #79 on: May 05 2022 06:58:34 »

This is encouraging!

The 116w problem may be simple to fix. The lnb may need to be moved slightly up or down in the holder, and/or the skew may need a slight adjustment. Personally I am not a fan of a wimax or any other type of filter until it is proven that such a filter is needed. LNB's operate over a wide range of frequencies, which explains why some lnbs seem to work better than others on a given transponder. The lnbs you are using are at the bottom of the barrel price wise, so see if a small adjustment can be made to get them working where you need them to work before investing money in filters, new lnbs, or other parts.

I have no idea what S 83% / Q 72% really means and I doubt anyone else does either. I think you have an Edision MIO receiver, and if so, check the signal using the snr in db. While the snr in db is not perfect either, it is better than nothing, and gives an idea how far above the noise floor you really are. The transponders that are giving the problems should be posted so they can be checked in other systems. Enigma2 receivers also have a talking signal meter app that does a good job if the receiver is connected to a network that can be received at the dish. The signal meter app allows adjustments to be made at the dish without disconnecting any cables. This is easier than installing a signal meter in most instances.
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armadillo_115
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« Reply #80 on: May 05 2022 09:07:38 »

Yeah, I'll play with it more after these incoming thunderstorms clear out. I fiddled with the skew a bit today, but never played with the FD. I turned each direction until I was losing transponders across the arc.

My WiFI starts dropping signal as I near the dish. Making it complicated to use my signal meter app. I need to relocate the router temporarily before I try again. (Roof blocks signal)

I'm in no hurry to buy more lnbs.  wink
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If a frog had wings,he wouldn't bump his butt when he tried to fly.
I wouldn't shoot a rat that was trying to get out of the city!
elbandido
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« Reply #81 on: May 05 2022 09:58:39 »

TNAP enigma2 images automatically generate blindscan or scan reports. Here is a snippet of a blindscan report of 117w tonight:

< 'DVB-S2 8PSK 3963H / 2400 / 3/4' > Tp# 26
< (71)PANAMERICANA HD />  1:0:1:1:1:FFFF:97D0F7B:0:0:0:
< (72)OneSeg />  1:0:1:2:1:FFFF:97D0F7B:0:0:0:


< 'DVB-S2 8PSK 3969H / 2560 / 5/6' > Tp# 29
< (76)WILLAX />  1:0:1:101:1:1:97D0F81:0:0:0:
< (77)TV-102 />  1:0:1:102:1:1:97D0F81:0:0:0:
< (78)TV-201 />  1:0:1:201:1:1:97D0F81:0:0:0:
< (79)TV-202 />  1:0:1:202:1:1:97D0F81:0:0:0:

Here are the approximate signal levels (snr in db) that are needed to open DVB-S2 8psk transponders:
DVB-S2   8PSK   
3/5   5.5
2/3   6.6
3/4   7.9
5/6   9.4
8/9   10.6
9/10 11

With almost every fta receiver, it is ALL or Nothing: Either the signal is strong enough to lock or open or it isn't.

For the sake of discussion, let's say a given fta receiver reads 100 percent quality for a 15 db(snr) signal, and 50 percent quality for a 7.5 db signal. We could assume this receiver would have a Q signal reading of seventy something if the signal was around 10db.  So if we were watching a channel on a transponder that almost required a 10db signal, and our imagined fta receiver was reading around 70 percent quality, then we could expect a choppy signal at times, and a clear signal at other times. We would also expect to see the Q signal drop from 70 something to 0 when the signal chopped or was birefly lost.

For c band satellite, it is a good idea to have a signal at least 2-3 db higher than what is needed to open it. When you are watching a channel on a transponder that has a borderline signal, then you can expect all sorts of strange things to happen, and this includes signal meter readings. Usually a fta receiver  cannot receive a 2 or 3 db signal unless it can lock or open that signal. This is why you will see fta receivers dropping from what appears to be a good strong signal to nothing in an instant. Everything from 5G to wifi gets the blame when a fta system is operating at or near the signal opening threshold!

So for me in dish tuning, it helps to know how much signal I need for the transponders I want to open, and compare it to what I actually have. A fta receiver with a decent working db meter really helps in this area. If you think you are getting interference from 5G or wifi, Confirm it before buying parts to fix it.  There are devices available that can show if the interference is 5G or wifi. Lots of times, a poor or marginal signal is mistaken for interference, and money is then spent to correct a problem that does not exist.
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armadillo_115
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« Reply #82 on: May 05 2022 11:28:22 »

Elbandido, Hope these are the numbers you need? Readings from the Signal Finder program on OpenVix. I don't know how to generate a blindscan report. These are just the 2 transponders of most concern.

Willax @ 3969/H/2560
SNR 11.3dB
AGC  80%
BER 0
77
80
0

Panamericana @ 3963/H/2400
SNR 10.6dB
AGC 75%
BER 0
73
75
0

Above readings taking when no problem with reception. Solid locks.

When it is messing up... signal jumps back and forth as low as ZERO. Similar to the way some data signals bounce up and down.
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If a frog had wings,he wouldn't bump his butt when he tried to fly.
I wouldn't shoot a rat that was trying to get out of the city!
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« Reply #83 on: May 06 2022 06:12:46 »

You are above the lock threshold by about 2db for each transponder. See if the signal creeps down a bit in the daytime.
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armadillo_115
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« Reply #84 on: May 06 2022 01:06:29 »

Signal dropped to 10dB on Willax ; 10.2dB on Panamericana all this morning Both still locking without problems.
Misting rain and total cloud may account for that.

If I recall correctly, the problem usually started around mid-afternoon if it started at all. Will keep monitoring signals when possible. Heavy storms still due to come in 1.5 hrs.

Going back to basics weather/time permitting.1) Verify Channel Master is still peaked. 2) Make sure buttonhook is still centered. (turnbuckles may need re-adjusting) Always problematic. 3) Play with skew and FD more.

Maybe I can find enough missing signal to help compensate for the low quality lnbs. Goal is just to find a working solution with what I have if possible.

I have an old Satron model 5000 lnb that came with one of my dishes. It needs testing later. May be better... or total trash. IDK. If no good, tired of it laying around.  rolleyes


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If a frog had wings,he wouldn't bump his butt when he tried to fly.
I wouldn't shoot a rat that was trying to get out of the city!
armadillo_115
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« Reply #85 on: May 08 2022 04:12:30 »

Put the old SatRon lnb on the Vert side of the Channel Master feed horn. (Tested with cheap old receiver, so no readings in db). S units dropped from 91 to 71. ZERO Q. (Horz still normal using the Chinese lnb) So I assume the SatRon is junkyard bound. Gonna look inside for anything obvious but that's about it.

Re-installed Chinese lnb. Parked dish on 116W, Willax channel. I know the 'correct' way is at the apex. Just looking for a fast improvement for Willax and Panamericana channels.

Tried peaking skew and FD... no improvement.
Pushing dish down gave at most a .1 dbB gain. Pushing dish up lost .1dB. So pretty well peaked still for 116W.

Going to put a couple of line amps back on next. Not expecting much, but what the heck.

Chainsaw mediation may help for 113W - 121W. But better lnbs probably needed for all Sats.


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If a frog had wings,he wouldn't bump his butt when he tried to fly.
I wouldn't shoot a rat that was trying to get out of the city!
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« Reply #86 on: May 08 2022 04:18:20 »

Most lnbs already have a line amp of at least 50db. So adding an additional line amp will do nothing except raise the noise floor unless you have several hundred feet of coax installed between the lnb and receiver.
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armadillo_115
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« Reply #87 on: May 08 2022 05:33:48 »

Most lnbs already have a line amp of at least 50db. So adding an additional line amp will do nothing except raise the noise floor unless you have several hundred feet of coax installed between the lnb and receiver.

Yup, the results were horrible. 20db sloped amps overloaded signal strength at the receivers. Most Transponders at 100% or more and refusing to lock. (db unchanged)

The only time the amps ever helped me was early on when I had some very poor quality/lossy coax. And wasn't much benefit then.

Wasn't expecting much... but only took a few minutes to add them and remove them. Just something else that will probably never be used again. Got three.... will let go cheap. lol
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If a frog had wings,he wouldn't bump his butt when he tried to fly.
I wouldn't shoot a rat that was trying to get out of the city!
elbandido
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« Reply #88 on: May 08 2022 08:49:46 »

If you are not having any other problems besides reception, then you may try swapping the lnbs and feeds from one dish to the other. I had very poor results with the white lnbs that are similar or the same as what you purchased.

The only other option to swapping parts would be to spend money. I would suggest buying One decent lnb and see if it helps on 117w as both of your channels are on horizontal transponder. Here are a couple of suggestions:

Code:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/251102605675?hash=item3a76e1b16b:g:aO4AAOSwxUJdvxG7

Code:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/203125271502?hash=item2f4b35abce:g:2AQAAOSws9dfdt4P

The Norsat lnb seller accepts returns. The Gardiner lnb seller does not. The Norsat 8225RF is a decent example of a good, fta satellite dro lnb.
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armadillo_115
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« Reply #89 on: May 08 2022 10:29:06 »

Elbandido, I'll try swapping lnbs just to be sure, but the white lnbs are not the ones having the problem.

Other than that, I'll let the wife decide if those 2 channels are worth the money to her.  I'm happy with MY channels so far.

Thanks for the links. I had already looked at the Gardiner lnb but wondered if they were any good.

Anyone have an opinion about this lnb?

Code:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003200869907.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.a2724867QHMUPQ&algo_pvid=9061fed1-ca44-4c28-b546-fefd754c9621&algo_exp_id=9061fed1-ca44-4c28-b546-fefd754c9621-3&pdp_ext_f=%7B%22sku_id%22%3A%2212000024631868276%22%7D&pdp_npi=2%40dis%21USD%21%2145.99%21%21%2120.08%21%21%400b0a557216520661134706686ea127%2112000024631868276%21sea
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